u, scared of their own shadows, so what? the fact remains that if u put 27.0.27.5 grs of AA2520 under a 60 gr V max, in a Winchester White box case (factory primer) and 11.5" barrel gets 2700-2800 fps, depending upon the barrel. cost u a whole $40 to find out I'm RIGHT. Get somebody's Contender, or buy a barrel for one(or for an AR,and sell it later, cut it to 11.5", and u'll see, that's all.