"suppressive fire" is for <font color=red>[**censored**]</font>ups, basically

What the heck... I'm bored enough to cut & paste it after all.

The topic was "no need to carry much ammo", basically.


(paste):


"Will" I need it? Probably not. But I "probably" won't need my truck's spare tire, or my fire extinguisher today either. Doesn't mean I'm going to throw them in the trash.

All I can say is that in the training I participate in, I've sometimes used more ammo than I could believe. Using M4 carbines and occasionally my own CAR-15, with Simunition uppers installed, playing "bad guy" in training exercises for a facility that trains all kinds of people. We also carry simunition-converted pistols; 1911's, Glocks, and Berettas.

FWIW, don't believe the ads that simunition is "like paintball". It's a plastic 9mm bullet @ 420fps. It just HURTS. I once caught a 7-round burst full-auto at about 8 feet. I couldn't have gotten up if I'd wanted to. (And I didn't want to; I just wanted to curl up into a ball & disappear.)


At this facility, I've "fought" operators from all kinds of agencies; from local swat units to military (never met an Air Force pilot-retrieval "operator" that was very good at this), to NNSA (National Nuclear Security Agency) teams. Most people have never heard of this agency, but when the director signs on in the morning, the nuclear power under his control makes him the fourth largest superpower in the world. These guys I've trained with have one mission: to re-take an American nuclear plant that's been taken over by "whoever". And they don't play like police. Standard procedure on engagement is a burst to the torso, a burst to the head, and THEN they handcuff your hands behind your back. (So you can't push a button if you're somehow still alive) They don't warn, and they don't let you surrender. They hunt and kill you. They have the best equipment the government can afford; and they ALL look like they eat wasp nests for breakfast and can bench-press a rabid bengal tiger. Nasty, scary people.

In rural Arkansas LE like I am, it's easy to get a "Billy Bad-ass" mindset; I'm 6'3", 245 pounds, shoot master qualifications on the pistol range, and my normal nightly workout is with 40-pound iron dumbells. Yet these guys honest-to-God make me feel like a sheep among the wolves. They're just tough bastards.

Point is, in these training exercises, I've more than once been on my fourth rifle magazine in one fight, depending on the scenario and how much shooting-&-maneuvering is going on. That's 66-88 rounds (22-round rifle mags, go figure) in ONE engagement. There's been times I've been 'killed' before needing to swap mags; and there's been twice that I've actually run out of ammo before all was over, and I carry five rifle mags and at least two pistol mags. Wasteful, yes. "A lot of missing", yes. But also a lot of "keeping them off me". (We 'bad guys' are often seriously outnumbered; seems hard to find volunteers to get shot at. Can't imagine why.) And when you're facing superior numbers with automatic weapons, and they know roughly where you are (and being govt agencies, they most always have the best night-vision gear, etc), "keeping them off you" means shooting and moving; period.

EVERY time I've tried to stay static against a larger or better-equipped group, I've died. EVERY time; and I know the buildings, cover, etc, better than these guys in training do, since I've been going there for years. So if staying static always equals death (which it has so far), the only chance for life is to NOT be static. That means moving, and when moving with people trying to shoot you, shooting back at them (even if inaccurately) can be very helpful in escaping. They don't want to get shot anymore than I do, and they are completely aware that I do know the facility better than they do. So their natural tendency is to duck when fire's incoming; even if it's largely inaccurate incoming fire, it's still more unnerving than NO incoming fire.

My point is this: I've rarely needed a "lot" of ammo, but it HAS happened. So when it's for real, I do carry more than I think I'll need. No way anyone can change my mind about that.

And fwiw, I've NEVER survived against the NNSA teams; no matter what new tactic I've tried. When it's them, my goal anymore is to "survive longer" than I have before against them, which is now 18 minutes.

Scary, horrid people.

Re: like I SAID, put them in the woods, or

223 fan said:

some OTHER city area( at NIGHT) trying to SURVIVE, having to purify water, gather and cook food, guard their familiies, etc,and SEE how much "concentrated firepower" they can still generate. NONE, basically. Just dont BE stupid enough to be in the open in daylight, and what I said about rds of ammo NEEDED will be quite correct. In the dark,or the woods, the Canned .22 unit will suffice, 90+% of the time. You whack 1-4 of the suckers, and move on. when they CAN'T gang up, with all their needs paid for by the TAXPAYERS, things are VERY different indeed. Ever heard of NOT playing the other man''s game, sucker?

Click to expand...

you may not have the luxury of dictating what the game is that's being played. This is the central failure of your fantasy scenarios. you assume blindly that everything will go the way you want it to every time.

you whack a group of four, only to discover that they are part of a larger group on a parallel track, or using bounding overwatch, and suddenly you're knee deep in the kim chee with a bunch of highly motivated, well equipped, pissed off individuals that all have a single objective: killing you.

you no longer can define the rules of engagement. Are there any you don't know about moving to flank you? Even a modest size group of people can send an amazing amount of lead your way.

Why don't you describe your break contact drill for a scenario like this?

And when's the last time you actually practiced such against an opposing group? or is it all just fantasy on your part based 100% on wishfull thinking and 0% on actually training for it?

:devil:

Dorobuta said:

Do you even know who these guys are and who they recruit them from? Do you know what their qualifications are to even just get a job interview? Most of these guys could go into the woods with whatever they have in their pockets and survive quite well.

I talked to one who used to teach SERE, and another that was a SEAL - these guys would be living quite well, while you were struggling to figure out if you needed the sleeping pill or the upper to function.

You wouldn't even be a nuisance to them. They'd simply kill you and not break a sweat.

You aren't whacking any of them. Your first clue that they are there will most likely be your death. These guys are that good.

Click to expand...

This; a million times this. It's been 18 years iirc since I last did that volunteering at that training facility. I never once survived against the NNSA guys; not one single time. I was in my 40's at the time, pretty big and very strong, and even then they killed me without any problem. I still work out some and I'm actually better with a gun now than I was then, and the fact remains that the age I am now, they'd kill me even faster and easier than they did back then. The age and shape gunkid is now, they wouldn't even take notice of him as anything more than the minor distraction that a 68-year-old drug addict inherently is.

One of the big lessons of maturity is recognizing our limitations and working around them, instead of just denying them. And I'm absolutely not as young or fast as I used to be. And I'm not as strong as I used to be. That's just life at a certain stage. But at least I've avoided becoming a drug addict on welfare. So far anyway - no telling what the future holds, I guess...

Melvin, if you have caches of reloading supplies like this at maybe your secondary location, you could afford "suppressive fire" if you required it in a self defence mode.