Arms Locker banner

1 - 14 of 14 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,165 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Both these cartridges and the rifles and revolvers designed for them were meant to be long range weapons. The Springfield rifle of 1873 carried a very precise, and for that time, expensive 1500 yard sight. Probably a liitle optimistic, but the times suggested that cavalry would often be engaged more than doubling the size of the target. The carbines with a lighter powder load, (55 Grains as opposed to 70 for the rifle) were shorter ranged but still a trained calvaryman was expected to hit a six by six foot target at 600 yards. The Colt .45 was designed for long range also, with practice at 25 to 50 yards, one handed. Political correctness being a non- issue in those day's, both cartidges were meant to put a man (or horse) down and keep him down. These were black powder cartridges. To say the .45/70 modern cartridges produced today are limited to a 200 yard range is ludicrous. Same with the .45 Colt. To say the Colt .45 Single Action Army is limited to a 10 Meter range is to say all of the Army tests of that period were wrong. The Army budget in the post Civil War day's was so small as to be almost criminal. You can bet that the powers to be knew what they needed in the way of small arms and tested them exhaustively before spending any money. What they needed and got was two long range, effective weapons.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,690 Posts
Terry, if I recall correctly, the Army figured on a 300 yard maximum effective range for the carbine, under combat conditions. Based on archeology, we know that this was the max range at which soldiers engaged the Indians at Little Big Horn. The SAA's 7.5 inch barrel allowed the SAA to substitute, should the carbine seize up, such as from overheating.

Troopers of that day were issued 10 cartridges per year per man for practice, but officers usually purchased an additional 10 cartridges per year per man out of their own money. For missions, troopers were normally issued 100 .45-70 cartridges and 24 .45 Colt cartridges.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,165 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
GBullet said:
Terry, if I recall correctly, the Army figured on a 300 yard maximum effective range for the carbine, under combat conditions. Based on archeology, we know that this was the max range at which soldiers engaged the Indians at Little Big Horn. The SAA's 7.5 inch barrel allowed the SAA to substitute, should the carbine seize up, such as from overheating.

Troopers of that day were issued 10 cartridges per year per man for practice, but officers usually purchased an additional 10 cartridges per year per man out of their own money. For missions, troopers were normally issued 100 .45-70 cartridges and 24 .45 Colt cartridges.
I'm not doubting you at the three hundred yard combat condition range, what my point was the .45/70 has a lot more accurate range under non-combat conditions than 200 yards. The Little Big Horn was not really a typical U.S. Cavalry versus Indian engagement. Custer was surprised. They certainly would have engaed at longer range had they had the time. I'm calling into question the ineffectiveness of the .45/70 Cartridge, not the carbine.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,690 Posts
Terry, I totally agree with you that the .45-70 is effective for 600+ yards. The Army knew that 300 yards was the max for the troopers due to insufficient practice. Ten to 20 rounds a year of practice was not enough for guys who had little experience shooting. The range limitations were not with the rifle, carbine or cartridge.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,165 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
What's surprising is that there seemed to be no General Order covering target practice. It seemed up to a post commander to determine. Some contemporary accounts state that they practiced on a regular basis. Some say they never practiced. Others state that their Officers were selling their traning ammunition. Still others state that their Officers would falsify the amount of ammunition used in an engagement to be able to draw more for practice. Who know's? 10 to 20 rounds a year isn't practice, it's making noise.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,944 Posts
Anyone ever read about how General J.E.B. Stuart died?

He was killed with a single aimed shot from a .44 cap and ball pistol fired from 400 yards.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,805 Posts
"he Springfield rifle of 1873 carried a very precise, and for that time, expensive 1500 yard sight." The Army was serious. During the 1876 Winter War against the Sioux tribes the Fifth Infantry regiment fought on foot amed with the 1873 Springfield. They had practiced extensively at long ranges. During the campaign they repeatedly fired effective company and Battalion volleys at ranges up to 800 yards.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,165 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
mrostov said:
Anyone ever read about how General J.E.B. Stuart died?

He was killed with a single aimed shot from a .44 cap and ball pistol fired from 400 yards.
You have GOT to be kidding! I'm something of a Civil War buff, but I didn't know that. I knew he was killed in a Cavalry engagement, but I thought it was typical Stuart, getting closer to the action than General's are supposed to.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,117 Posts
random accidents are not something upon which to bet ANYTHING, much less your life. A dumbass who "thinks" a 10" 223 is worthless beyond 200m shouldn't "think" a 44 cap and ball, at 400m, is worth even COMMENTING on. those bozos had no way of knowing, nor the time to waste figuring-out, what bullet hit who, much less from how far away it was fired.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,117 Posts
sure, LOTS of guys, firing lots of rds, at lots of other guys in a small area, will hit a FEW of those guys, so what? The same can be said of the 38 snub at 150 yds. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
657 Posts
"Posted by Andy"
sure, LOTS of guys, firing lots of rds, at lots of other guys in a small area, will hit a FEW of those guys, so what? The same can be said of the 38 snub at 150 yds. :)

The same could probably be said about a 10 inch CAR anywhere beyond 150 yds.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,165 Posts
Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
andy said:
sure, LOTS of guys, firing lots of rds, at lots of other guys in a small area, will hit a FEW of those guys, so what? The same can be said of the 38 snub at 150 yds. :)
The .45/70 Springfield was designed as an accurate, long range, point type weapon, not an area or volley weapon. Do you know the difference? Your lack of firearms knowledge other than fanciful CAR's and chopped up pistols with homemade "cans" is truly amazing for someone who considers himself an "expert."
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,815 Posts
That particular Long Range sight on the Springfield was called the Buffington sight.
 
1 - 14 of 14 Posts
Top