[John in AR]

The "Felons and Firearms" thread made me think of this. My view of the death penalty is different from most people's and for different reasons.

Most people that I've talked to fall into two categories:

- They don't believe in it for ANY reason, or

- They believe in it for only two or three reasons (usually some combination of: murder, rape, armed robbery, kidnapping, treason, or child molestation)


I believe in the death penalty for only one offense: murder. My reason for NOT supporting it for other (admittedly hideous) offenses has nothing to do with altruism or "niceness" on my part; strictly pragmatism. Let's see if I can word this clearly...


Some goblin grabs my wife in the mall parking lot. Yes, we macho, pistol-packing types on this board can say she "shouldn't" put herself in this vulnerable position, but it does happen in an imperfect world. (This example could just as well be of a goblin that grabs a child from a playground for either ransom or sexual abuse.)

He cold-cocks her, throws her in his van, drives to the woods, and has his way with her for a few hours. At this point, he has to decide what to do with her. He can let her go, or he can kill her; that's his only two options at this point.

If he kills her and hides the body, his chances of being identified (and therefore caught) are much lower than if he lets her go alongside the road or in an alley. Many bodies are never found, and more than one "known" killer has been acquitted due to lack of forensic evidence that a body and/or crime scene provides. (If they don't find the body, they're less likely to find the scene.)

Follow me now... He's already committed rape and kidnapping; two of the things many people want the death penalty for. If the penalty for kidnapping or rape is the SAME as for murder, think about his position at this point. He can reduce his risk of capture and/or conviction if he "wipes out" the evidence by going ahead and committing murder, with no increase in potential penalty, can't he?

Once he's crossed the line where he's facing the death penalty, he has absolutely nothing to lose by doing whatever he can to reduce risk of conviction. And the "disappearance" of the one person who's often the only witness (the victim) absolutely reduces that risk in a HUGE way.

So by imposing the death penalty for anything LESS than murder, we literally INCENTIVIZE murder.

Frankly, I'd rather he had an incentive to keep her alive.

 

[RIKA]

A well reasoned argument, John. But I can think of another offense deserving the death penalty - maiming.

I mention this because I remember hearing (reading) of the man in CA who kidnapped a woman and cut her arms off. Seems CA law didn't exactly cover this crime and he got out in a few years (they gave the max sentence under the law). He got out intact but the woman he maimed - and who lived - is existing in a living hell even today.

Perhaps gruesome crimes like that should be included. Or maybe an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.

RIKA

 

[Half elf]

I am a person who believes that if it was good enough for the victim then it should be good enough for the perp. If the victim was shot, so be it line up a firing squad, if it was burning, creamate the bastage, dismemberment, donate his wothles arse to a college and let medical students donate his organs, skin, and eyeballs. One of the far eastern countryies floods regularly, and build a basement for death sentences, 1st floor for lifers, and 2nd-3rd floor for short termers. I dont agree with the means, but do with the results.

 

[Magnum88C]

You make a good point John.
I'll have to rethink my position, but the problem is how do you adequately punish the other crimes you mentioned without resorting to torture?

Maybe torture is the answer? Before anyone goes off the hook, remember that for many decades after this country was formed, just about every town has a whipping post and stocks, which were rarely idle. Often in the stoicks one or both ears were nailed to the stocks, and when the sentence was over, the nails weren't pulled, the ears were sliced off. Sounds barbaric in the Age of the Wimp, but then, there was no huge tax burden for prisons because most crimes were paid for swiftly and the perpetrators didn't often repeat their mistakes.

Just something out of the usual "box" to think about.

 

[84 C4]

I believe in two punishments:

1) Restitutions to the victim and a $500 fine for the state; for the misdemeaners.

2) Execute the felons.

No sense wasting taxpayer money on prisons, that money is better spent on new highways, and the deportation of liberals.

 

[Stillwater]

I like the biblical, an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.

Anything less is just a waste of time and money.

Give the perp a fair trial in the morning, and execute the perp in the afternoon.

Bill

 

[KJUN]

Give the perp a fair trial in the morning, and execute the perp in the afternoon.

I disagre with this because of the number of cases where someone spends years in prison only to be found completely innocent years or decades. Rushing things too much will increase this stuff.

I believe in a VERY SPEEDY trail, but I don't believe in a trail that is even slightly rushed. There is a difference.

KJ

 

[KJUN]

Frankly, I'd rather he had an incentive to keep her alive.

Very good points that I can't answer. On the one hand, if you put someone like that in prison and let them out to do it again, the fault is at least partially on society for NOT removing that violent predator from society completely. On the other hand, what you mention is a very valid consideration. Let me state plainly that I don't agree with you, but it is making me reconsider my views. I believe that was your goal, and you at least reached it with me.

I'd still rather see that violent predator removed from this society forever - that's what they deserve. At least we know it won't happen again!

 

[John in AR]

Everyone's still civil; that's encouraging (and surprising) when discussing this kind of topic.

I understand the "wanting to remove them from society"; I do too. I don't want rapists, muggers, etc, just wandering around free society where my wife & kids are. Violent felons need to be removed from society, whether by means of long prison sentences, whatever.

All I'm talking about is "at what point do we impose the ultimate penalty?" Because once a scud is faced with "the ultimate penalty", he's crossed a line where he has nothing to lose and literally his life to gain by killing every victim, and every witness, to every crime he commits.

There's an old saying about murder, "The first one's real expensive; after that, they're all free". Scuds and goblins do understand this. Once they've committed murder, they have nothing to lose by committing more of them. But if he hasn't yet killed anyone, I think it's a bad idea to make murder "free" to him. If a guy's robbing a bank, and it turns into a hostage situation, he can possibly be talked out (or strung along long enough for someone to snipe or assault him). But if he's already facing execution for the bank robbery, then killing all the hostages costs him literally nothing, does it? And this is one of those "domino" things; the police KNOW he has nothing to lose by killing people at this point, so can they afford the time it would take to even TRY to wear him down...? (And talking/stall tactics ARE the most proven way to end those situations without innocent people dying.)

Don't misunderstand... How I 'feel', and what I 'think' are two very different things on this. If some guy grabbed one of my kids and abused him, I'd want to put a bullet in his head, as most all of us here would. But while that's true, I want the guy to have an incentive to NOT kill my kid afterwards; and if the punishment doesn't escalate with the escalation in crime, there is a built-in incentive TO kill the child, to reduce available evidence and eliminate the best (and probably only) eye-witness.

To discourage anything, it has to be expensive. This is true of anything, whether we're talking about import tariffs or highway speeding; it's also true of crime. That's why we have longer sentences for 'worse' crimes; the spectre of greater punishment 'discourages' the worse crimes. That's also why driving 40 mph over the limit carries a much greater fine than driving 10 over. Let's be honest with ourselves about something: why do so many of us drive 7-9 mph over the speed limit? Because of these two things:

A - the risk of BEING stopped, and
B - the penalty imposed if we ARE stopped

are both much less than if we drove 30 or 40 over. But if the penalty for driving 5 or 10 over was the same as for 30 or 40 over, we all know we'd see a LOT more cars doing 30 & 40 over, wouldn't we? Why not? There's no increased penalty, so it's "free".

Human nature is human nature, and the same principle applies to more important things as well; such as murder.

Once emotion is removed from the decision-making process, it really is that simple to me. Just throwing it out there for consideration; my life will go on if everybody doesn't agree with me. :duck:

 

[Aslan]

There are many considerations, many of them have been brought out - here's a couple more:

1) last time I checked, it cost more than 1 million dollars to execute a death row inmate - no matter how long he'd been there.

wtf? there are so many automatic appeals and reviews built into a DP case that this is the tab we tax payers end up picking up. This is totally whacked. I don't have an easy answer to this one, I don't want innocent people executed.

However, for the most part, the "innocents" that mistakenly end up on death row are NOT good guys caught in the system. they are by and large career crimals with a history of violent acts.

2) what are we paying to house, feed, educate and train criminals that are locked up?

I'd feel a lot better if prisons were totally self-sufficent as far as paying for themselves. I don't like picking up the tab for a place that does not rehabilitate, and in fact is a plce were convicts can improve their skills for comitting crimes.


Death penalty - I'm for it, but not at it's current price tag and procedures. We can argue which crimes are capital offenses, but the system is broken as it stands and is way too costly.

just my $.02

:devil:

 

[Stillwater]

Aslan:
If you want to reduce the price of incarcerations, and executions, just reduce the amount of Lawyers that can handle death panalty cases.

Reduce the amount of appeals a prisoner can get.

Reduce the amount of time a prisoner can appeal in.

Make it so a prisoners appeals must contain clear, substantive grounds, for the appeal.

Feed the criminals like Sheriff Joe Arpaio does in AZ. Arpaio spends forty cents a day on prisoner food. And the prisoners must work eight hours a day.

Arpaio's prisoners don't have big beautiful buildings to live in -- they live in tents, and wear PINK underwear.

Bill

 

[Aslan]

I know Joe, having had several meetings with him. (not personal friends or any of that crap) Many of my friends are also part of the sherrif's posse.

I like the guy, he's a bit egotistic, but hey so what?

Tent city, pink underwear, green baloney. To save $$ he eliminated coffee for the inmates.

He's on the right track.

:devil:

 

[Stillwater]

I know Joe, having had several meetings with him. (not personal friends or any of that crap) Many of my friends are also part of the sherrif's posse.

I like the guy, he's a bit egotistic, but hey so what?

Tent city, pink underwear, green baloney. To save $$ he eliminated coffee for the inmates.

He's on the right track.

:devil:

Since MELVIN is so pround about the many different jails he has been in, I wonder how he would like to be a guest, of Sheriff Joe?

Bill

 

[andy]

<font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font>, YOU are a felon, you dumbass. You commit MANY felonies a year, and could easily be set up to be convicted of MANY more, per WEEK. DITTO of your wife,mother, sister, daughters, etc.

 

[RIKA]

That sounds like the threat you made on several other forums, goonkiddie. Still nothing but hot air.

RIKA

 

[84 C4]

I always have a hard time trying to determine which post(s) that melvin is responding too.

****, YOU are a felon, you dumbass. You commit MANY felonies a year, and could easily be set up to be convicted of MANY more, per WEEK. DITTO of your wife,mother, sister, daughters, etc.

 

[Stillwater]

I always have a hard time trying to determine which post(s) that melvin is responding too.

Mostly MELVIN posts, and replies to the voices in his head.

 

[Aslan]

Actually, I don't commit any felonies, nor have I. (which is why I can and do pass all the required background checks that I have had.)

Why don't you list some of the felonies you think any of us have committed?

This should be a very entertaining list.

And don't forget to call us names in the process. Even though they will most likely be edited out, it's still entertaining.

:devil:

 

[Stillwater]

<font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font>, YOU are a felon, you dumbass. You commit MANY felonies a year, and could easily be set up to be convicted of MANY more, per WEEK. DITTO of your wife,mother, sister, daughters, etc.

As Aslan suggested, MELVIN, why don't you list the felony's we commit each day? And right along side of ours, just list the ones you have been CONVICTED for!

I have had several security clearances myself. I have had Extended Background Investigations, in my work as an Engineer/Designer. (Make you jealous MELVIN?) I have never had an arrest for any kind of criminal behavior, major, or minor. If I had, I would not have been given highly sought after, compartmentalized, security clearances.

I haven't even had a traffic ticket since 1988.

 

[dmstrmac1]

Death Penalty

Having a family member murdered ,And waiting for justice to happen for the last thirteen years as the mudering pig sits on Death Row in San Quinten and milking the appeals process to prolong the inevitable,and all that commit murder know that they can milk the system the same way. I beleave that if the punnishment was actually death there wouldn't be as many people commiting the crime.And death row wouldn't have over 600 waiting to be executed. Give them all a double of the cocktail and get it over with

:uzi::uzi: