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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
handgun loads is that such ammo pierces Kevlar vests, and no ammo maker is willing to upset all the poor little coppers.
 

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No dummy. Its because congress passed laws against making armor piercing ammo available except to law enforcement.

What a nitwit.

RIKA
 

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There is plenty of handgun ammunition that reaches 2200fps. Speed of the round is not counted in the equation for legal reasons of whether it is AP or not.

Remember, according to the ATF, the .223, and .308 is considered handgun rounds. That is how they got the restrictions on AP ammo for them. And I believe both of those easily top 2200 fps.

Mike
 

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Wait about another year or so.

The .460 S&W is supposed to hit 2000+fps.With a spitzer type bullet no less.
 

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andy said:
45 needs 2300 fps and a VERY hard bullet to pierce Kevlar vests.
I'm sure your PO will appreciate that comment.

RIKA
 

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Hey, middle school drop out -- listen to this ...

andy said:
45 needs 2300 fps and a VERY hard bullet to pierce Kevlar vests.
Says the middle school drop out, Scarecow, who trys to make us a believe he is a graduate school ballistician.

Damn TARD, give us credit for some knowledge -- knowledge you don't have obviously!
 

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Remember, according to the ATF, the .223, and .308 is considered handgun rounds. That is how they got the restrictions on AP ammo for them.
Why do places still sell .223 green tip "penetrators" then? Is it a ban on newly manufactured ammo and the boxes that are for sale are older and thus the only remaining sources? Had NO idea they consider them handgun ammo... jeez.
 

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The .308 is classified as hand gun ammo. That's why if you want .308 AP rounds, you have to pull the bullets from 30-06 AP rounds.

Because of the XP-100 (I think), some bright boy in the ATF changed the classification of the .308 ammo. It became gospel.

I'm not so sure about the .223 though. The penetrator rounds are not classified as AP. (don't know the rationale behind that though...)

:devil:
 

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Another stupekid post.

Kelvar vest comes in many rateings. The lower levels will NOT stop a .357 125gr JHP from a 4 inch barrel! You are FOS again, stupekid.

Most vest that are readly concealable will stop a fair number of handgun bullets but their threashold is 1500 to 1600 fps. CZ 52, in 7.62 does pierce many vest. And it does not have one of the forbidden metals (like tungsten) in it's compostion.

If only stupekid would do more than dream his fantacys and live in the real world he would have known this. But that boy ain't never going to learn.
 

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M855 AKA SS109 AKA Greentip is not an armor piercing round.
It neither meets the defined standard under federal law nor does it perfom as AP ammuntion does.

In fact at ranges up to 40-50 yards M193 ball will outperform M855 in steel. Beyond 300yards M193 will again have superior hard target performance than M855.

M995 has a solid tungsten-carbide core and is armor piercing.

M855 AKA SS109 and 30-06 M2 AP are specifically exempted from the definition of Armor-Piercing Ammuntion


The definition of ap ammo is at 18 USC 921(a)(17):
"(B) The term `armor piercing ammunition' means-

(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and
which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other
substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass,
bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and
intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25
percent of the total weight of the projectile.

(C) The term `armor piercing ammunition' does not include shotgun shot
required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting
purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile
which the Secretary finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting
purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Secretary
finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge
used in an oil and gas well perforating device."
 

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Interesting, thanks for the info. Some sites refer to the SS109 core as "composite" while others say "steel" and "tungsten carbide." Some state it's AP as well.

Are the .223 and '06 bullets OK because they are specifically exempted or they don't meet the definition?

cheers
 

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The 30-06 ammo is not classified as pistol ammo...

:devil:
 

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There are "non AP" rounds out on the market that do have some AP capabilities. Take the 5.7x28 SS-192 rounds for example (ammo for the FN FiveseveN or P-90). These are supposed to be the non-AP rounds but I have seen video of a police officer shooting a Level III Vest for testing purposes, and most of the rounds went through both sides. This was just Kevlar though, without the chest plate, but impressive none-the-less. FN claims that the AP round (SS-190) will penetrate 48 layers of Kevlar at 200yrds. The non-AP SS-192 round is 28gr at 2034fps. I bought the FiveseveN IOM Single Action Tactical last October and I have been very impressed with the operation and accuracy of the weapon. I have been a .45 guy all my life mostly because they do not make a .46 but I gotta tell yah... this 5.7 round is kick ass. I have put about 500 rounds through my IOM so far and not one jam. Anyway I digress. A round does not have to be put in the AP category to actually be AP. I am sure you guys have even more examples of other rounds that possess these qualities, what say you?
 

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I'd love to shoot the FN

Another pistol caliber that is frequently considered to be AP is 7.62x25 Tokarev.
 

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I was under the impression that the raison d'etre for the 5.7x28 was to have a seriously armor piercing pistol.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
all you have to do to get FN type penetration is load the right bullet into a similar sized 9mm, over the right powder charge. Velocity does nothing for one's ability to hit in a gunfiight. That's just bs. Nearly everyone misses the 10" chest, REPEATEDLY, at a mere 10m, when they are being shot-at, and nobody has ever proven that they can reliably hit the chest beyond about 25m, with a pistol, when they were actually underfire. The 750 fps .45 ACP target swc shoots plenty "flat" enough to stay in the 10" chest circle to 50m. :) Velocity has almost nothing to do with ccw type pistol accuracy. That same .45 target ammo will group 2" at 50m, with the right 1911 firing it.
 
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