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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
All I have to say is, when will they do something about MY RIGHTS? I celebrate Christmas, but because it isn't celebrated by everyone, we can no longer say "Merry Christmas"... now it has to be 'Season's Greetings.' It's not Christmas vacation, it's 'Winter Break.' Isn't it amazing how this winter break ALWAYS occurs over the Christmas holiday???

I remember taking "Easter Vacation" when I was a kid in school, and now it's 'Spring Break'... and the visual reference I have of that is thousands of college kids in drunken orgies in famous vacation spots.

When I grew up, I proudly stood with my hand over my heart as I recited the Pledge of Allegiance to the United States flag just like everyone else did, and now it is illegal. Next thing you know, they'll do away with singing the National Anthem at the World's Series or the Superbowl! We've gone so far the other way, bent over backwards to not offend anyone, that I am now being offended. But it seems that no one has a problem with that.

After hearing that the state of Florida changed its opinion and let a Muslim woman have her picture on her driver's license with her face covered this is an editorial written by an American citizen, published in a Tampa newspaper...

"IMMIGRANTS, NOT AMERICANS, MUST ADAPT. I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11, we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Americans. However, the dust from the attacks had barely settled when the "politically correct" crowd began complaining about the possibility that our patriotism was offending others.

I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to America. Our population is almost entirely made up of descendants of immigrants. However, there are a few things that those who have recently come to our country, and apparently many born here, need to understand. This idea of America being a multicultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity. As Americans, we have our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle. This culture has been developed over centuries of struggles, trials, and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom.

We speak ENGLISH, not Spanish, Portuguese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, learn the language! I am outraged every time I have to make a choice in language when I use my debit card or try to get a hold of customer service on the telephone.

"In God We Trust" is our national motto. This is not some Christian, right wing, political slogan. We adopted this motto because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools! If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.

If Stars and Stripes offend you, or you don't like Uncle Sam, then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet. We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from. This is OUR COUNTRY, our land, and our lifestyle. Our First Amendment gives every citizen the right to express his or her opinion and we will allow you every opportunity to do so. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about our flag, our pledge, our national motto, or our way of life, our government, and our country, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great American freedom, THE RIGHT TO LEAVE."
 
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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Don't worry, as soon as Costa Rica gets reliable pizza delivery I'm there. Just so I can stop being taxed to death :D
 

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Amen!

Historically, people came to America in order to become Americans. They were proud to tell people that they made all of the efforts necessary in order to do that. Immigration was a hardship for nearly everyone, but they gladly did that to be able to have the right to say "I am an American!". The word was that by coming to America and working hard, you had more opportunities available here to make something of yourself that was not readily available in your homeland. MANY people gladly took that challenge and made a succesful life for themselves.

Now people want a free ticket over here and then once they hit the ground, the first thing they want to do is to apply for welfare. Not all, mind you, but quite enough that it is becoming a disturbing trend. A lot of this could be nipped in the bud right off the bat by making the welfare application forms in English only, with no one allowed to bring in an interpretter to fill out the forms for them. Make the effort to learn OUR language or take the next boat back to where you came from.

Matter of fact, ALL official goverment forms, documents, and notices really should ONLY be in our official national language. I don't want to see a STOP sign on a corner printed in 12 different languages.

I hear many of these people claiming that they don't want to give up their culture or heritage in order to live here. Say that again?? Just who twisted your arm to make you come over here? If you want your culture, your language, and your heritage, the solution is simple. Go back to it.

This is OUR country and OUR heritage that YOU are coming to. You are welcome here, but please read the fine print on that welcome mat. Don't try to cut out a chunk of America to try to make it like the homeland you left. You left it for a reason, remember? We didn't go to your country and drag you kicking and screaming over to ours. WE do not want to give up part of our country or OUR heritage for you.

Yes, the United States of America has been known of the melting pot of the world. But you either melt in with the rest of us or get filtered out by the strainer and discarded.

When you come into this country, you should have to choose to be one of two things: An American or a temporary visitor. And the countdown for the deadline starts when your foot hits our soil.
 
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
YUP!!!

We didn't go to your country and drag you kicking and screaming over to ours.
Not anymore at least! If we did, we'd have to pay restitution to them, as well!
 
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
America has not, and in my opinion never will be the "Melting Pot of the World." A history professor once told me that America is more like a "Tossed Salad of the World." Instead of several different ingredients melding together to form one thing, it is several individual ingredients that stand out on their own, but still are a part of the whole.

I agree 100% that if you are going to live in ANY country, you learn the damn language!!! I don't care who you are or where you are from or where you are going. If you are from the USA and are packing up to move to Hong Kong, you better damn well learn Cantonese. Even if you are hopping the fence from Mexico to the US, if you intend to STAY, you better be speaking American English toot sweet. I wouldn't move to Brazil and expect to be able to get a driver's license without being able to speak a word of Portugese, and noone should expect to be able to get one here without learning American English.

However, I don't think they should forget their native tongue altogether or meld into what we want them to be. They will have certain cultural ideals they will want to stick to, which to me is fine. BUT, they do still need to be able to acclimate and become accustomed to the customs and cultural nuances of the country they are now calling home. I wouldn't expect to go to Mongolia and be able to live exactly like I do here in the states, but I would still have my own cultural background.

In other words, all I'm trying to say is don't forget who you are and where you're from, but also don't forget that you are in a new home now, and YOU need to adjust, not everyone else.
 
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Matter of fact, ALL official goverment forms, documents, and notices really should ONLY be in our official national language
I know that a number of times over the last decade and a half, give or take, this issue has been introduced and there has been some bill at some point virtually every year that wants to make "American English" (Originally a regional dialect until all of a sudden more people spoke American English than English English, so most linguists, from my limited research, consider it separate and dominant) the official national language...

But to the best of my knowledge at this time (Meaning I'm not positive) none of these bills have passed and we, as a nation are still without an "Official National Language"

I agree fully with the sentiments expressed about the need for individuals to become functionally able to speak the language used by the majority, the dominant language in the country, but as far as I know (if it slipped by me, correct me) English is not actually legally our National anything.

Something did change at some point where immigrants were concerned... My family is all relatively new to the country for the most part, with no lineage in the U.S. past the 1880's and three grandparents (And a number of Aunts) who are immigrants themselves. New cultures did traditionally experience a certain degree of isolation but nothing close to what I see going on now. What had previously been the case was usually neighborhoods within a larger municipality that tended to be composed of one ethnicity, but the borders were always fuzzy, the lines always blurred and the children were always encouraged to be "American" in ADDITION to maintaining what their family held as being important, the traditions, the culture, the history (The beer).

The thing is... many of the groups that now seem to be the most outspoken about their refusal to adapt in any way, were also, albeit in smaller numbers, among those who were before comforming to the country while still maintaining their individuality. I think the problem is not so much inherent in the particular groups as it is the ever increasing press to be Politically Correct and Affirmativly Active and Tolerant of Everyone (Don't ever get into a fist fight or even an argument with someone who isn't exactly the same as you when it comes to race, ethnicity, religion, gender, age or sexual orientation or somehow you're commiting a "Hate Crime" even if it's just that one person you really really hate)... People were told that they needed to bend over backwards to be polite... mistaking "Respect" with "Don't critisize ANYTHING." If I had grown up being told I was getting a lot of free rides and nobody was allowed to ever say anything nasty to me no matter what kind of jerk I was being, I'd probably believe it too. Just because a system and an attitude is in place that allows an individual to act in such a manner doesn't mean it's morally right to though. The same as it's inappropriate to move to another country and outright disrespect it's traditions, it's cultural identity, it's heritige (That doesn't look like it's spelled right) and it's people. Especially when that disrespect means I end up being overcharged for a food item I didn't order by a clerk who hasn't quite figured out a base 100 monetary system and the value of our coins or the meaning of the words "Dr. Pepper... No you brainless jackass, that's diet coke, I said Dr. Pepper... DR PEPPER!"

Heck... they drive on the left side of the road in some countries too, does that mean newcomers should feel free to make themselves feel at home by driving into oncoming traffic?
 
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
In God We Trust" is our national motto. This is not some Christian, right wing, political slogan. We adopted this motto because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools! If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.
This is really the only part I really disagree with. One of the founding priniples of this country is "freedom of religion". This country was not founded as a Christian haven. I don't believe that any religion should be affiliated with the govt, with public schools, etc.

Now, I am an American. I was born here, I was raised here. However, I am NOT a christian (and I don't really care if that makes me unpopular). I don't feel I need to "find another home" just because I don't believe what christians preach. There is nothing wrong with being a christian if that is what you want to be. You can be a part of any religion, but no religion should be a part of or affiliated with the government. I am all for seperation of Church and State on every level.
 
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
One of the founding priniples of this country is "freedom of religion". This country was not founded as a Christian haven
Historically...

It sort of was...

Freedom of Religion really only applied to religions that were or were closely associated with Judeo-Christian beliefs.

You could be free to be Protestant, Jewish, Catholic or part of the Church of England, but it was... punishable... and never tolerated by the population as a whole or by the early colonial governments to be anything outside of Christian for the most part. Not that there were always specific government restrictions on religion... but there was no real protection or tolerance granted to anything that wasn't at least close to being a belief system held to be true by the founders.

Religion was also used numerous times throught the countries growth as motivation for a number of events... Native Americans were pagan savages who needed to be exterminated, states were broken up based on the movements and migration of religious groups and at various points there were laws about religion and land ownership, employment and localized rights to vote.

It might not fit in with the way history is idealized and might have been largely erased from public knowledge because it was suddenly unacceptable to mention instances of religious intolerance or religious promulgation in our nation (and pre-nation) but it is factual, like it or not.

History must always be taken contextually, the meanings of words can shift over time as the situations around them change and the descriptions given as being factual aren't always anywhere near what actually happened. The founding fathers were all upper class protestants and they worked it into early laws and into the principles they held to be true... The word "God" shows up a lot.
 
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
An Addendum to Seamus' comments:

The Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment have a very convuluted history. There were three prominent theories expounded by "founding fathers" as to "the separation of church and state."

There is the Madisonian Wall...basically that government (national government, states' were free to have religious oaths until the last one was dismantled in 1961) needs not be concerned with religion.

There is the Jeffersonian Model, which is an "absolute" separation. (Which we have never had.)

There is the Williams' Model- which is also a "wall of seperation," but a porous one- one that provides benefits to religions but confers no hindrance, or government taint upon them.

There were, in fact, discussions of polytheistic religions, as well as the overlooked third in the triumvirate of Judeo-Christian-Islamic thought, and in part, these possibilities animated the lengthy debate over the exact manner to frame these clauses. Put simply, the founding fathers did not agree, left it deliberately vague, and the Courts have interpreted it ever since.

As to all the "god" stuff, most of that dates to 1952-1954. The Pledge was recited for years without "god," all that was added to distinguish us from the "godless communists." I won't get into whether or not it "should" be there, but its a huge mistake to believe that it is a particularly lengthy part of our history.
 

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A percpective from someone from a different country.

We came here.
My Dad applied for work. He was told he was "over qualified". Okay so he applied for the position over the first one. He was told he was "under qualified". Must be that heavy accent he had. Never the less. He NEVER applied for unemployment or the free money everyone else gets.

I came to this country. I leanred the language. In fact I spoke and read it and wrote it before I even learned my own national language.

I came to this country to be an "American". I do not remember coming to this country to turn all yous into Filipinos.

America celebrates Black history month. America celebrates Spanish whatever month. They also celebrate Asian whatever month. I am Asian and Spanish......But I sit at home wondering when in the world they will have a white people month.

When I visit a country.....I do try to learn and expect to speak that country's language. I do not go over there expecting them to speak whatever language I want them to speak.

This is the land of the free and home of the brave. So get a fu-----g job.


sorry but this topic kinda gets to me
 

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long story short.

come to this country.
learn the culture.
learn the language.
learn how to speak it.
learn how to read it.
learn how to write it.

or get the f--- out.


and if you think this country sucks..... leave and go to a "better" one
 
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
My feelings

I agree with Richie, this is the United States. If you want to live or visit please take the courtesy to learn and be a part of the culture and structure of this country. As just the average run of the mill WASP Male, I feel in about as much of a minority as is possible except of course in legal terminology where I am the majority (funny how numbers can be made to say what you want to say).

As far as Religion my feelings on the issue of founding fathers is this. (THIS IS MY BELIEF) That so many of the original settlers from Europe came to this land to escape religious persecution, what has to be remembered is that in Europe the government (the monarchy for the most part) had an official religion. Outside of The Church of England, the religion was The Catholic Church. If you didnt agree with the Church then the government would often persecute you. Our founding fathers wanted to make it so that you could worship as you felt without any reprisals from the government for your beliefs. It is also my feeling that our fathers never intended to keep religion out of the government but to keep the government out of religion. Religion should have a part of all governments just not be the government.

With that being said I will also say that Seamus is right many things have been done in that name of Christian expansion. Not only in this Country but in others, and the words "Save us from the heathens" or "Save the Heathens" are the ones that have lead us to try to be totally tolerant of the push for the total exclusion of Christian beliefs, or symbols in government.
 

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I guess I never understood the religion thing, in the context of why get upset about it either way.

Let's assume there is a God. People will either believe in "him" or not. If it bothers God that some people do not believe in him, he certainly has the power to do something about it. The fact that he does not, leads me to believe that he doesn't care one way or the other. Now some people will say that the punishment will come at judgement day. Maybe so. But I never understood this either. Bad people are sent to Hell, to be punished by the Devil? Why would he punish anyone whom is doing bad things like he would want them to be doing?

If people believe in another God or Gods, then the REAL God certainly has the power to punish those blasphemous heathens, if he so chooses. Since there has never been any religion that has had all of it's members spontaneously combust, then there doesn't seem to be an all powerful being out there that cares enough to make that happen to the people whom don't believe in him.

So why should PEOPLE, believing in one religion or another, think they need to take it on themselves to kill or convert people whom might think something different? If their God isn't doing something about it, either he doesn't care, or they are betting on the wrong horse.

When I was a kid, my mom sent my brother and I to Sunday School. About half way through, my brother got homesick so they called my mom to come pick us up. On the way home, my mom asked me what I thought about the religion stuff. I told her that it didn't make any sense. Every question I asked was answered with "you must have faith". So I asked her "Mom, isn't it true that God is everywhere and can see everyone and anything, no matter where they are?" And she said "Yes". So I asked her "Then what difference does it make whether I am in a building called a church, or walking in the woods?" So, I never had to go to Sunday School again.

In another instance, I was talking with a girl friend of a friend of mine back in my band playing days. Somehow we got on the topic of UFOs. She was saying it was stupid to believe in them. And of course, I asked her why she would say that. Her reply was because she had never seen any herself, nor did she know anyone else whom had seen one. So I asked her if she had ever seen Africa or knew anyone else whom had either. That got her fuming, and while I was chuckling, she said "And you just better not go on to asking me if I have ever seen God!" No, I didn't. But instead, I asked her, "Is it true that God can do anything at all he wants to?" And she said "But of course!", thinking I was going to be nice to her. Instead, I said, "Well, can God create a rock that is so heavy that he can't lift it?"

:D
 
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
The only thing I have to say about it is, if politicians and christian groups want to put the commandments on the wall of the capitol here in Atlanta, I want some equal representation for the minorities. Isn't that what it's all about anyway? Representing the minorities? I want to see not only the Christian commandments, I also want to see rules of all the other religions which are not the majority. Judaism, Islam, Hindu, Satanism, the myriad differnet Pagan religions, I want them all to be represented, otherwise it's discrimination, right? The atheists have to have a spot on the wall too. We'll need a place for the voodoo practicioners to pin up some dolls. How about a carving of a bong for the Rastafarians? Not sure what the Scientologists would put up, probably an add for one of their front groups. Did I miss anything?
 
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I said, "Well, can God create a rock that is so heavy that he can't lift it?"
Don't you just love George Carlin?

My only problem with the religion thing is that I don't think it has any place in "public" schools, or in other "public" buildings (gov't buildings, for example). I don't know if Uffern was being sarcastic or not, but I agree with one of the points he made. (even if he was being sarcastic). If you are going to support one religion in a public building, then you should have to support them all (every single one, no matter how small or unknown to the majority).

My son's teacher (he is 5) is constantly telling her class about how Jesus did this for them, and Jesus did that for them. I do not send my child to school to be preached to. If I wanted them to hear preaching (which I DO NOT!), I would send them to some type of church. I was forced to go to church every Sunday growing up, and I was force to attend Catachism(sp?) classes, go thru Confirmation, and serve as an Accrolyte (this is all Luthern based, by the way). I will not force that on my kids, and if we allow teachers (for example) to teach Christian beliefs to our children, then we have no say over it. What if the teacher was teaching the Nine Satanic Statements instead of the Ten Commandments? People (most, I think) would be outraged and demand a firing, even might sue the school system for allowing it.

This is why I think that there must be an absolute seperation of Church and State, with out exception. That is just my view, take it for what you want.
 
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I too believe that public schools should stay away from religion. If parents want them to learn in that enviroment then pay to put them in a religion based school. I was in Catholic schools during my grammer years. I was able to choose. I chose public. My sister on the other hand went to public as a small child and chose Catholic high school for structure and to stay out of trouble and more into school. It worked for her. She is twelve years younger than I so my school and hers are many moons apart. I was there with the nuns and rulers.
Did I conform? Hell no. Do I still have the "Catholic guilt"? yes. Do I believe in the religion? Not really, but I do still wear a cross and believe in something. (just in case) Is it a God per se? no.
Believing in something is good. Faith is good, you can't touch or see love.
This should be a personal prefrence on how you wish to raise your children. Mine is to let them learn and explore all options. But to find something. There is something to be said about faith and some of the "old" ways of life. If there is nothing to believe in, there is nothing to look forward to, therefore more people not caring and more havoc in the world. (Just my opinion)

As for this country as a whole. I like the tossed salad thing. Thought that was good. Bring your heritage with you. Bring your language. But learn ours too. It does irk me when I go to a school and see a special class for Spanish. Learn English. Why should all tax payers have to pay for this when there is not enough money in our school systems as it stands.
Other countries such as Germany make it mandatory to learn English but we cant seem to make the very people that come here to learn the language?
Your here, learn it, accept it. Don't come here and start complaining. This was the better choice otherwise you wouldnt be here.
My people came from Hungry just for FYI. On a boat in the late 1800's. My great grandmother would not teach us her language, not very many to talk to she said, we are in America, this is our home. This is my home as well, because of them, I am proud and I speak English.
 

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quote:
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I said, "Well, can God create a rock that is so heavy that he can't lift it?"
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Don't you just love George Carlin?
Not that it matters much, but for the record, that statement I made was in the late '60s and as an original thought. Not something I heard from someone else. I always was pretty talented at original thinking.... :D
 
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Not that it matters much, but for the record, that statement I made was in the late '60s and as an original thought. Not something I heard from someone else. I always was pretty talented at original thinking....
No offense was intended!! LOL, I just have a George Carlin VHS tape with a whole skit about religion. His exact words were actually "If God is all powerful, can he make a rock so big that he himself can't lift it?" When I saw your statement, that was the first thing that came to mind (big George Carlin fan, after all!)
 
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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Religion

Jason I actually agree with the concept that your sons teacher shouldnt be "teaching" Jesus. That is government in religion, however if my son goes to school and decides to pray to Jesus, your son, the school, the teacher shouldnt be offended. That is religion in government. And yes if your son wants to pray to Allah or any other god (or GOD to be correct) then so be it so long as its not done as a mockery of any other childs beliefs.

As far as the abilities of God or not I will follow the teaching of my biblical upbringing. Rich your point as a child that going for a walk in the woods is as good as building actually is the way its supposed to be. The church is not the building but the fellowship of two or more people. It doesnt matter where they worship for they are doing so. God does care but he does allow us the choice to do and believe what we want (at least in my opinion) so going to hell and being punished isnt correct for hell in itself is the punishment.

Faith in the unseen isnt that hard to fathom. We all have faith that oxygen exists in the air in a room or that science is right and thats really what we need. But hey we cant see what we breath (except in most cities). So why is it so hard to believe in an entity that you cant see. And for all of you who dont believe in God do you really want to believe that the universe, this world and your very life is just based on an accidental series of occurrences that took place over the past million or so years. Or how else do you explain the presence of human existence.

Since I have calmed from most of my religious outspokenness, the bottom line is you can believe what you want. That is your choice its your right. Both in respect to the laws of this country and in my religious beliefs.

The only thing is respect what I believe, discuss it, debate it. You wont change my mind as I wont change yours but isnt that what the freedoms we enjoy are all about.
 
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