noisy, short ranged,low penetration, small mag capacity, slow , awkward reload, moisture and oil senstive ammo, stupid way to carry ammo, expensive, bulky, heavy ammo. A shotgun is a snob''s toy, for shooting birds on the wing. A quiet .22 is a far better foraging tool, along with traps, nets, snares, and trotlines.
The shotgun is pointless for shtf, too
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Trolling by any chance?
I'll bite.
Shotguns are historically the highest casualties causing firearms in the history of conflict, widest variety of ammo (such as saboted AP, grenades, CS, flares), lowest training time, most avalible ammo (on par with 22 in the US), with a little trainng continous feed could provide ammo from now till 1000+ rounds later straight out of the box, inexpensive (where you buying shotguns anyway?), can be supressed, mechanically simple to maintain and operate.
Try and open a door with a 22 or get in a gun fight 00 vs 22. That's 9 to 1 in my math from the trigger pull. OK you didn't say 22 for combat but what other gun you have on hand down range if you want quick entry? For hunting with a shotgun you with just different ammo (different barrels would be nice too) can go from bird to deer. Try that with you're 22. Know any 22s that mount bayonets? (Hey, maybe there are.) And if the SHTF hard enough I can use a shot gun as a mortar. (Look it up in US Army's improvised munitions manual).
I'll bite.
Shotguns are historically the highest casualties causing firearms in the history of conflict, widest variety of ammo (such as saboted AP, grenades, CS, flares), lowest training time, most avalible ammo (on par with 22 in the US), with a little trainng continous feed could provide ammo from now till 1000+ rounds later straight out of the box, inexpensive (where you buying shotguns anyway?), can be supressed, mechanically simple to maintain and operate.
Try and open a door with a 22 or get in a gun fight 00 vs 22. That's 9 to 1 in my math from the trigger pull. OK you didn't say 22 for combat but what other gun you have on hand down range if you want quick entry? For hunting with a shotgun you with just different ammo (different barrels would be nice too) can go from bird to deer. Try that with you're 22. Know any 22s that mount bayonets? (Hey, maybe there are.) And if the SHTF hard enough I can use a shot gun as a mortar. (Look it up in US Army's improvised munitions manual).
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Please read the final paragraph first before reading what comes next so you won't think I am attacking you personally.
Okay, I'll reply. I like shotguns and have a police barreled 870 as my home go-to weapon. I cannot say that the shotgun is the best SHTF weapon though. Heres why:
To answer your arguments:
"Shotguns are historically the highest casualties causing firearms in the history of conflict, widest variety of ammo (such as saboted AP, grenades, CS, flares), lowest training time, most avalible ammo (on par with 22 in the US), with a little trainng continous feed could provide ammo from now till 1000+ rounds later straight out of the box, inexpensive (where you buying shotguns anyway?), can be supressed, mechanically simple to maintain and operate."
The shotgun is a specialized weapon for close range; within 30 yards its a crowd killer but further out you are seriously outgunned by almost any old rifled shoulder gun - even a 30-30. Its ammo is large bulky and heavy so you can't carry much of it though it might be the most readily available ammo short of .22 rimfire. Continuous feed? Got a BATF stamp? Suppressed? Got a link? (and a BATF stamp). Mechanically simple to maintain? Have you ever taken one apart? Many of the average shotgun's parts are relatively fragile since they are designed for sporting use though the shotguns used by the military are sturdier than most. Fact: a weapon designed for combat is of heavy duty design and meant for continuous rough duty.
"Try and open a door with a 22 or get in a gun fight 00 vs 22. That's 9 to 1 in my math from the trigger pull. OK you didn't say 22 for combat but what other gun you have on hand down range if you want quick entry?
I'll take a crowbar, go in through a window or use lock picks for quiet entry, thank you. For quick but noisy entry a fragmentation grenade works very well.
"For hunting with a shotgun you with just different ammo (different barrels would be nice too) can go from bird to deer. Try that with you're 22.
Deer are killed by poachers with a .22 all the time. Sitting birds (the best kind) are easy prey for a .22.
"Know any 22s that mount bayonets? (Hey, maybe there are.)"
Gunclod's runty CAR can mount a bayonet. Personally I would rather mount my lover.
I see no real use for mounted bayonets but thats just me - a bayonet is better used for opening rations and slitting throats.
"And if the SHTF hard enough I can use a shot gun as a mortar. (Look it up in US Army's improvised munitions manual)."
I have read the Black Books also. Trying to turn a shotgun into a mortar is NOT a good idea because you will place an enormous strain on the gun's internal parts, probably cracking or breaking something. There are better ways to launch objects.
The .22 is NOT the best weapon for SHTF though I would take one over a shotgun. Me personally, I'll take an M1A or a H&K91 paired with a CZ 9mm Compact (and .22 conversion kit). YMMV and thats what life is all about.
Now please don't get all upset with me. I am just replying to your post for the sake of intellectual discussion. Please feel free to refute any of my arguments using logic. Your thoughts are quite interesting though I cannot agree with all of them. Again, not a personal attack.
RIKA
Okay, I'll reply. I like shotguns and have a police barreled 870 as my home go-to weapon. I cannot say that the shotgun is the best SHTF weapon though. Heres why:
To answer your arguments:
"Shotguns are historically the highest casualties causing firearms in the history of conflict, widest variety of ammo (such as saboted AP, grenades, CS, flares), lowest training time, most avalible ammo (on par with 22 in the US), with a little trainng continous feed could provide ammo from now till 1000+ rounds later straight out of the box, inexpensive (where you buying shotguns anyway?), can be supressed, mechanically simple to maintain and operate."
The shotgun is a specialized weapon for close range; within 30 yards its a crowd killer but further out you are seriously outgunned by almost any old rifled shoulder gun - even a 30-30. Its ammo is large bulky and heavy so you can't carry much of it though it might be the most readily available ammo short of .22 rimfire. Continuous feed? Got a BATF stamp? Suppressed? Got a link? (and a BATF stamp). Mechanically simple to maintain? Have you ever taken one apart? Many of the average shotgun's parts are relatively fragile since they are designed for sporting use though the shotguns used by the military are sturdier than most. Fact: a weapon designed for combat is of heavy duty design and meant for continuous rough duty.
"Try and open a door with a 22 or get in a gun fight 00 vs 22. That's 9 to 1 in my math from the trigger pull. OK you didn't say 22 for combat but what other gun you have on hand down range if you want quick entry?
I'll take a crowbar, go in through a window or use lock picks for quiet entry, thank you. For quick but noisy entry a fragmentation grenade works very well.
"For hunting with a shotgun you with just different ammo (different barrels would be nice too) can go from bird to deer. Try that with you're 22.
Deer are killed by poachers with a .22 all the time. Sitting birds (the best kind) are easy prey for a .22.
"Know any 22s that mount bayonets? (Hey, maybe there are.)"
Gunclod's runty CAR can mount a bayonet. Personally I would rather mount my lover.
I see no real use for mounted bayonets but thats just me - a bayonet is better used for opening rations and slitting throats. "And if the SHTF hard enough I can use a shot gun as a mortar. (Look it up in US Army's improvised munitions manual)."
I have read the Black Books also. Trying to turn a shotgun into a mortar is NOT a good idea because you will place an enormous strain on the gun's internal parts, probably cracking or breaking something. There are better ways to launch objects.
The .22 is NOT the best weapon for SHTF though I would take one over a shotgun. Me personally, I'll take an M1A or a H&K91 paired with a CZ 9mm Compact (and .22 conversion kit). YMMV and thats what life is all about.
Now please don't get all upset with me. I am just replying to your post for the sake of intellectual discussion. Please feel free to refute any of my arguments using logic. Your thoughts are quite interesting though I cannot agree with all of them. Again, not a personal attack.
RIKA
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I think the argument just revolves around the premise that one gun MUST fit all scenarios where a firearm would be needed. Which is nonsense, of course. The simple fact of the matter if that a shotgun will be the BEST choice for some situations, and completely inappropriate for others. Just as would be the case for just about any other single type of gun you would care to use as an example.
If you are involved in a SHTF situation and only have a shotgun, then you would need to choose wisely the instances whereby you utilize this weapon. Knowing the strengths as well as the limitations of whatever tool you happen to have at hand at the time is the key to your survival and well being.
If you are involved in a SHTF situation and only have a shotgun, then you would need to choose wisely the instances whereby you utilize this weapon. Knowing the strengths as well as the limitations of whatever tool you happen to have at hand at the time is the key to your survival and well being.
But Rich!....What about the de-barked Chihuahua-drawn ,10 inch,supressed,.22lr converted CAR-15 mounting assault wheelbarrel on your way to the tire raft down the river in to Mad Max/Cannibal land to set up your own personal fiefdom as incumbent warlord of the wasteland??.....Sorry man,I think I was channeling Melvin....gotta lay off of the chili when it gets that old.....
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RIKA, "Mount your lover?" Don't tease
Gripper, I like you, but you are just plain scary sometimes (though not nearly as scary as Melvin).
Topic specific:
If I had to choose one and only one firearm for major SHTF, it might be a shotgun. As was pointed out, in CQB it is especially effective. Outside of CQB range, the prudent person will seek to evade rather than engage. It might be hard on a slug barrel to fire shot through it, but it can be done. Therefore, a shotgun with a rifled or smooth bore slug barrel will handle most any ammo available for that shotgun's gauge. This makes it at least a passable hunting weapon as well as a CQB gun, provided the barrel is short enough to be used effectively inside structures. Yes, I know that the shorter barrel would adversely affect accuracy at longer ranges. It is a trade off.
I have seen fairly fast rates of fire with breach break shotguns, both single and double barrel, in the hands of a good shotgunner that is experienced with that particular weapon. That said, there is no way even the best shotgunner is going to achieve the rate of fire with a breach loader that can be achieved with a pump or auto-loading shotgun, much less a semi-auto rifle or handgun. Moreover, a breach loader is totally unsuitable for CQB. You simply would have to put shells in it too often.
Like I said, I might choose a shotgun if I was forced to choose only one firearm to carry into SHTF. In reality, I would likely choose 5 or 6 weapons if I had the choice and wherewithal to transport them if necessary. They would include a shotgun for CQB and possibly some game hunting, a 10/22 for small (and maybe not so small) game hunting, a center fire rifle (my preferred round is .30-06) for larger game and long range sniping if I felt an unavoidable need for it, an AK, SKS, or AR (if the other two were not available) for intermediate range and possibly CQB, and an autoloading handgun with a revolver backup. That is six. I have those weapons available now, whether I would have them in SHTF is a matter of where I am when it hits and whether I can carry them all with me if I have to bug out. My assault wheelbarrow and tire raft are currently in need of repair although I do live right on the Ohio River. It is less than a mile as the crow flies.
Gripper, I like you, but you are just plain scary sometimes (though not nearly as scary as Melvin).
Topic specific:
If I had to choose one and only one firearm for major SHTF, it might be a shotgun. As was pointed out, in CQB it is especially effective. Outside of CQB range, the prudent person will seek to evade rather than engage. It might be hard on a slug barrel to fire shot through it, but it can be done. Therefore, a shotgun with a rifled or smooth bore slug barrel will handle most any ammo available for that shotgun's gauge. This makes it at least a passable hunting weapon as well as a CQB gun, provided the barrel is short enough to be used effectively inside structures. Yes, I know that the shorter barrel would adversely affect accuracy at longer ranges. It is a trade off.
I have seen fairly fast rates of fire with breach break shotguns, both single and double barrel, in the hands of a good shotgunner that is experienced with that particular weapon. That said, there is no way even the best shotgunner is going to achieve the rate of fire with a breach loader that can be achieved with a pump or auto-loading shotgun, much less a semi-auto rifle or handgun. Moreover, a breach loader is totally unsuitable for CQB. You simply would have to put shells in it too often.
Like I said, I might choose a shotgun if I was forced to choose only one firearm to carry into SHTF. In reality, I would likely choose 5 or 6 weapons if I had the choice and wherewithal to transport them if necessary. They would include a shotgun for CQB and possibly some game hunting, a 10/22 for small (and maybe not so small) game hunting, a center fire rifle (my preferred round is .30-06) for larger game and long range sniping if I felt an unavoidable need for it, an AK, SKS, or AR (if the other two were not available) for intermediate range and possibly CQB, and an autoloading handgun with a revolver backup. That is six. I have those weapons available now, whether I would have them in SHTF is a matter of where I am when it hits and whether I can carry them all with me if I have to bug out. My assault wheelbarrow and tire raft are currently in need of repair although I do live right on the Ohio River. It is less than a mile as the crow flies.
Shotgunner vs plinker?
RIKA,
Been reading your posts (good stuff) and I’m up for a knock down drag out good natured argument. The original post was “The shotgun is pointless for shtf”. One thing I think we agree on is SHTF have a shotgun AND a 22 if possible (I do and a hand gun and long rifle and assault rifle and think I’ll get a BB gun and a Bow to round it off). We’ve kind of gotten into Shotgun vs 22. But sounds like a good game to play. Also I think your talking SHTF survival and I’m talking SHTF home defense. It’s all situation dependant.
I think your misunderstanding “Continuous feed?” since you said “BATF stamp?” after that. It’s just the training to fire one load one. Yes it’s bulky heavy ammo but if you’re in a close defense with shells handy you have a better chance than a 22 to take down aggressors and get the chance to reload. No restraints of my choices, give me a SAW for that situation. I’ll look for a link I have to Shotgun suppressors. I’ll take your point and add it as a caveat that military shotguns are sturdier (my main experience is military).
In a perfect world my entry would be the way I was first trained, with a main tank round. These days I train with a shotty. In a stealthy situation if I had that skill set I’d use a lock pick and use something I do know how to use like a suppressed 45 or a knife.
I’ll hand you the point that pound for pound you’d probably bring in more game hunting with a 22 than a shotgun. I’ll admit a tie in versatility since I still think a shotgun would be able to take some of the larger and more aggressive game reliably. But I’m open if you want to press the point with more info.
Using a shotgun as a Mortar has been tested. It works. Think of it more as a rifle grenade. I agree not something I want to overdo though.
RIKA,
Been reading your posts (good stuff) and I’m up for a knock down drag out good natured argument. The original post was “The shotgun is pointless for shtf”. One thing I think we agree on is SHTF have a shotgun AND a 22 if possible (I do and a hand gun and long rifle and assault rifle and think I’ll get a BB gun and a Bow to round it off). We’ve kind of gotten into Shotgun vs 22. But sounds like a good game to play. Also I think your talking SHTF survival and I’m talking SHTF home defense. It’s all situation dependant.
I think your misunderstanding “Continuous feed?” since you said “BATF stamp?” after that. It’s just the training to fire one load one. Yes it’s bulky heavy ammo but if you’re in a close defense with shells handy you have a better chance than a 22 to take down aggressors and get the chance to reload. No restraints of my choices, give me a SAW for that situation. I’ll look for a link I have to Shotgun suppressors. I’ll take your point and add it as a caveat that military shotguns are sturdier (my main experience is military).
In a perfect world my entry would be the way I was first trained, with a main tank round. These days I train with a shotty. In a stealthy situation if I had that skill set I’d use a lock pick and use something I do know how to use like a suppressed 45 or a knife.
I’ll hand you the point that pound for pound you’d probably bring in more game hunting with a 22 than a shotgun. I’ll admit a tie in versatility since I still think a shotgun would be able to take some of the larger and more aggressive game reliably. But I’m open if you want to press the point with more info.
Using a shotgun as a Mortar has been tested. It works. Think of it more as a rifle grenade. I agree not something I want to overdo though.
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hey_'k-JUN'!!!,,,,YOU SUCK!!![goats]
During my 6 year tour we used two shotguns. Mossy pumps and the 870-the same ones off the shelf at any gun retailer. We used #4 buck.
As far as a shotgun being only good for short range...I don't have any trouble wearing out a paper plate at 100 yards with a smooth bore short barrel off-hand and with the reduced recoil slugs it can be done with speed.
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Unalist, I'm glad that you took my reply as a friendly discussion. Thats what makes this site fun.
Bryan,
"As far as a shotgun being only good for short range...I don't have any trouble wearing out a paper plate at 100 yards with a smooth bore short barrel off-hand and with the reduced recoil slugs it can be done with speed."
You must be an exceptional shot. Most folks can't do that. What kind of sights are you using?
I shoot with a man who can shoot good 100yd groups with a 2" Smith snubby and with a Luger but he has exceptional eyesight and is coordinated like an Olympic athlete. Some folks can do extraordinary feats. I envy them.
RIKA
Bryan,
"As far as a shotgun being only good for short range...I don't have any trouble wearing out a paper plate at 100 yards with a smooth bore short barrel off-hand and with the reduced recoil slugs it can be done with speed."
You must be an exceptional shot. Most folks can't do that. What kind of sights are you using?
I shoot with a man who can shoot good 100yd groups with a 2" Smith snubby and with a Luger but he has exceptional eyesight and is coordinated like an Olympic athlete. Some folks can do extraordinary feats. I envy them.
RIKA
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434 Posts
I 'think' you must be using a self stabilizing round to acheive 9" @100yds....
Brenneke or something along those lines, perhaps? Not your everyday "punkin' ball slug ............
We went to pump shotguns on subs in the late 70's, early 80's...
much ,much better for clearing hallways without damaging too much electronics and such. Believe we used #4 shot and had buck available
Brenneke or something along those lines, perhaps? Not your everyday "punkin' ball slug ............
We went to pump shotguns on subs in the late 70's, early 80's...
much ,much better for clearing hallways without damaging too much electronics and such. Believe we used #4 shot and had buck available
Iron sights. (not a scope fan)
Maybe my thinking or expectations are off (not trying to be a smart rear-this is just how I see it), but if a shooter was off-handing a good rifle and printing 8 inch groups at 100 yards, I would say they need to practice... I think there is a misconception that slug guns are not accurate. Considering the slug gun accuracy tests I've read and performed, I would say my results are good-not exceptional. Granted, a good rifle (1 inch-ish at 100 yards) is better than the vast majority of slug guns, but most decent slug guns will print 5 inches or better at 100 yards and I've read several do better than 2 inches. Even if the gun will only print 5 inches, a shooter only needs to be able to 'hold' 5 inches to hit a 10 inch paper plate.
Yes, Brenneke and their imitators seem to perform the best.
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Are you claiming you can do this with off-the shelf "wal-mart" lead slugs?
See post #14.
Are you saying SMG or sub as in sub-rifle sub-carbine that some people refer to the M4 and the like as? M4 with a KAC Masterkey is my preference. If you do mean SMG humor me and shoot me a pic (post one) please. Finally settle that old debate (shotty vs SMG) anyway. I'm not positive but I think I've done my rant on SMG already.
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45 Posts
A few points:
Hits on a paper plate can be made all day at 100 yards with a smoothbore shotgun and slugs. I mean Remington green box "Slugger" loads. Bead sights can be challengimng, rifle sights are not a problem. That's good enough for a torso hit. With rifle sights and a stable position, you can cut that group size down enough to kill deer or similar game.
However, the only reason this argument would even come up, is if the shotgun is the only weapon available. People making those arguments (I'd bet including the OP), are almost always of the idea that a "SHTF" situation will result in everyone walking around living out of a backpack for the rest of their lives, which is nonsense. Ever since Adam & Eve got kicked out of the Garden, human have been pack animals. We live and hunt in packs, although most would refer to it as a tribe or clan.
Even modern nomads, travel in groups and use pack animals, they don't live out of a single pack. So there's no reason to not have more than one choice available.
Hits on a paper plate can be made all day at 100 yards with a smoothbore shotgun and slugs. I mean Remington green box "Slugger" loads. Bead sights can be challengimng, rifle sights are not a problem. That's good enough for a torso hit. With rifle sights and a stable position, you can cut that group size down enough to kill deer or similar game.
However, the only reason this argument would even come up, is if the shotgun is the only weapon available. People making those arguments (I'd bet including the OP), are almost always of the idea that a "SHTF" situation will result in everyone walking around living out of a backpack for the rest of their lives, which is nonsense. Ever since Adam & Eve got kicked out of the Garden, human have been pack animals. We live and hunt in packs, although most would refer to it as a tribe or clan.
Even modern nomads, travel in groups and use pack animals, they don't live out of a single pack. So there's no reason to not have more than one choice available.
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Sorry I was not a little clearer on the 'sub' comment....
I did mean 'submarine', as in "U BOAT".......
When I first got to the fleet it was M-14's and 1911's...
Imagine if you will a 125 lb. 18 year old trying to hold a M-14 steady on full auto:fullauto:....., I/We were much better off when 'THEY' decided that 870's
made more sense for belowdecks use, they kept a couple of the rifles for topside use...of course ON THE SURFACE, -before anybody asks.....
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