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MUCH hotter loads shouldnt MATTER. So the ONLY diff then,between 45 plus P ammo and .22 is the diff in recoil. The 22 has 1/6 the recoil, but it can weigh as little as 1/4 as much,too. The M21 is 12 ozs when fully loaded, the 1911 weighs 47 ozs when fully loaded with 9 rds of 230 gr bullets, with a steel beavertail grip safety. So such a .45,inpractical terms, has only twice as much recoil as does a M21, and since a M21 has about zip recoil, I am CORRECT in saying that there's nothing much to keeping .45 ball in the 10" A zone at 10 ft, as fast as you can pull the trigger, when recoil is the only issue.

Recoil is NOT the only issue, however. Blast IS a factor, because "auditory exclusion" does NOT always occur. In fact,it OFTEN doesn't occur, or is "spotty". At times, your own blasts, and those of your buddies, are HORRIFICALLY effecting your "accuracy".

The other factors are that you will miss a LOT even with just a .22,on movers, while you move, in badlight, with wounds already inflicted upon you, when ducking incoming blows, bullets, etc. At pistol type range, the natural mammalian reluctance to kill its own kind is a lot more drastic in its effect than it is at longer, rifle ranges. The sniper's scope in a way makes his killing more "personal" because the target is unaware of his risk(inmost cases, or he wouldn't BE "hittable" at long range). The sniper can see the expressions on the man's face, sometimes even after the shot. The guy with just an iron sighted infantry rifle, tho, is just blasting away. They usually have no IDEA whether or not THEIR shot dropped THAT guy,or if some other infantryman also fired athim,a random richochet hit him, the belt fed got him, or even if he really WAS hit at all, or just went prone behind cover,tripped and fell, etc.

So there's LOTS of other things going-on in a pistol fight, and it makes VERY little difference that your practice load has quite a bit less recoil than does your carry load. IF it's the case that some cops practiced with .38 wadcutters and carried 357 full charge ammo, they got killed for LOTS of other reasons than just the difference in recoil. They STILL miss the man COMPLETELY with 3/4 of their shots,(as a nationwide average, even using the far easier to control SA-DA 9mm, and they miss the chest 90+% of the time.

Diallo wasn't even shooting at those 4 cops. The fired 41 shots, the FURTHEST away cop being 15 ft, they hit him SOMEPLACE 22 times,with ONE solid hit to the chest. One cop fired at him 7x, from 6 ft away. GUESS who got 7 of those 22 hits, (as well as the single solid hit to the chest) hmmm? :) That means that the other 3 cops, firing 34 shots, got 15 hits, ALL of them peripheral in nature.

So getting MORE of the RIGHT KIND of practice, by virtue of using 9mm ball instead of .40, .45 plusP, or 357 Sig "carry loads" means a LOT more than does practicing LESS, with the 3x as expensive "realistic" ammo.

Where guys screw up is in doing so much of the sort of shooting that constitutes less than 1% of what's needed (ie, slow, or beyond 10 ft or at more than 2 targets in any one "exposure)) Fire as fast as you can. Get a timer, keep records. Use doubled layers of black plastic sheeting to simulate darkness. Rig a moving target, fire while moving, use cover efficiently, fire from awkward positions,weither either hand, and with the "wrong" eye per hand. You can easily lose the loss of one eye(temporarily) from debris striking you (from anear miss) or from yourown or another's blood running down your face.
 

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I don't "claim" audotory exclusion in combat. I have repetedly experienced it The fact that you don't believe in it merely confirms that you have never beem in combat.
 

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Yes, everything that happens in a deadly situation has consequences, any thinking student knowa al lof this. You train with an ey e towards maintining skills that yeild a higher percentage of surviving/winning. there are no small points, only relatively smaller points. But the rule is trainlike you fight, and that includes correct training, as realistic as can be had with the carry load (or one that equates) you will use in a fight.
SatCong
 

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Andy says: ""auditory exclusion" does NOT always occur."

It sounds like you are admitting that "auditory exclusion" DOES occur, if only sometimes. Good boy Andy, I think you are learning from us after all.

RIKA
 

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Two weeks ago I shot a IPSC stage at the local matches without ANY EAR PLUGS. After scores were totaled up and posted (30 people present), I outshot everyone else in that stage. Everyone else had ear muffs on. So much for flinching that gunkid is so afraid of. gunkid is so afraid of a little bit of noise cause he has not shot a gun in so long. And that's a fact.
 

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DJetAce said:
Two weeks ago I shot a IPSC stage at the local matches without ANY EAR PLUGS. After scores were totaled up and posted (30 people present), I outshot everyone else in that stage. Everyone else had ear muffs on. So much for flinching that gunkid is so afraid of. gunkid is so afraid of a little bit of noise cause he has not shot a gun in so long. And that's a fact.
I am surprised that in today's age they even let you on the range without ear protection, at least ear plugs, let alone muffs. You would not shoot on any range where I was in charge without them unless it was by oversight.

of course Ia gree that if you are used to shooting the noise will not likely effect your shot placement that much. It may on the next shot if it really got to you, but chances are it will not get to you even if not a combat situation.
 

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Glen, this was a IPSC match. The owners were not there. I had left the muffs in the bag farther back, and after making ready, I realized I forgot the muffs, I just told them, "Aw to hell with it, let's go." And we went. No big deal as for the other shooters. They sure didn't care.
 

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You must either be an old timer or middle aged shooter like me who already has lost lots of hearing and does not care, or a young buck who does not yet realize how bad it can be once you realize that holy crispy critters my hearing really sucks. It certainly does not take many shots withunprotected ears to start losing hearing - please believe me on that especially if you are the younger of my guesses. Man just raise that hand, and let them know you need ears, because if you are younger, then you never need know what it is like to be missing what you otherwise will wind up missing...
 

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I read a report about a week ago concerning auditory exclusion. Doctors now think that your hearing is not damaged unless the seperation of the timpanic bones is overwhelmed by sound vibration. Their feeling is that a short fast noise won't effect your hearing because it cannot produce the needed vibration to damage the timpanic assembly. However, machine gun fire for extended periods, or things like jet engines or unmuffled engines CAN cause damage by bypassing the effectiveness of auditory exclusion.

Mike
 

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Guy's and Girl's, Please using hearing and eye protection. I was a young stud that thought I was too tough to care about hearing protection. Now I'm deaf as a post. As a Doctor friend of mine pointed out, shooting a major caliber handgun or rifle will ruin your hearing in as little time as it took you to read this.
 

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Hard Rock, I've detected no loss. It's not the first time I've shot without muffs. A few times I've forgotton my muffs at home. I just made some tissue 'ear muffs' and kept on shooting.

I think you are right on this. I've met many a navy guy who served on ships and the gunfire seems to have really gotten to them. I think millions in WW2 fired all kinds of small arms and no problems. But if you do get near the muzzle end of the rifle it can get real bad.

I remember seeing 'Black Hawk Down' and the guy who was under the muzzle of the 5.56 machinegun and it just deafend him. It was funny even though I'm sure it wasn't funny then.

The thing is, it sure didn't lower my scores shooting without muffs. So gunkid as fos as usual on this.
 

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Terry is right... under range conditions, always use hearing and eye protection... AE is something that is caused by adrenaline and stress. For the most part, you don't even know it's happening. The most common phrase heard after a defensive shooting is: "I never heard the gun go off". Now you know why.

Mike
 

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You know what's surprisingly loud the first time you fire it is an 81mm mortar. You watch war movies as a kid and you expect this metallic 'whump' sound. You fire an 81mm mortar and when you're right next to it, it sounds as loud as a .30-06.

A 105mm rifled gun is kind of loud too. So's a 5in autoloading naval gun.
 
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