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Discussion Starter #1
has to be going in order to cause damage to fragile chest organs with just the temporay cavity. :)

If you say "2400 fps minimum', then an 18" 308, with 165 gr btsh's can't do so beyond 50m. :) A 20" 308 can't do so beyond 50m, with a 180 gr bullet.

If you say "2200 fps", then my pocket pistol has the same potential, since the 356 is 55 grs at 2200 fps.
 

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"u HAVE no answer for how fast a rifle bullet has to be going in order to cause damage to fragile chest organs with just the temporay cavity. :)

You're probably right but not all enemies will be out in the open for you to plink at. Theres lots of cover that can be pierced by the proper bullet in the right caliber. Another silly post.

RIKA
 

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He's loading the numbers again. Just pick the heaviest bullet in the caliber you don't like and compare it to the lightest bullet you can dream up in the caliber you do like, then claim that "yours" is just as effective. Notice he didn't discuss energy figures or momentum figures for the different rounds, nor did he discuss bullet construction. Bullet construction will determine HOW the bullet transfers it's energy, but that's beyoind him. As is the fact that FPe and "energy transfer" are not the be all and end all of "stopping power".
 

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He's still in time capsule denial. He refuses to acknowledge that modern technology has made one of his pet pistol ideas superfluous.

With a muzzle velocity of 2820fps with a 150gr ballistic tip, the bullet has 2648 ft/lbs is still moving at 2288fps at 200 yards and is still packing 1744ft/lbs.

Of course, we get to hear the '.308 ball' tirade, as if that's all everyone shoots is .308 ball.

But, then again, not all ball is created equal.

A West German 7.62 round (left) and the
American counterpart (right).
 

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andy said:
has to be going in order to cause damage to fragile chest organs with just the temporay cavity. :)

The organs in the temporary cavity are either NOT damaged, or receive only minor damage. Hence the "temporary" preceding the "cavity." It is called a temporary cavity because the tissues and organs within the human body are able to stretch, and then regain it's shape, with little or no damage being received. For ballistic vests, the accepted depth of a temporary cavity is 40mm.

The permanent cavity is what destroyed tissue. It's an antiquated belief that the temporary cavity caused sufficient damage. Modern bullet design is currently geared towards creating larger permant cavities.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
dumbass, if you'd ever SHOT some animals with rifle sp, you'd know how fos you are about the chest organs being elastic enough. The heart might be, but the lungs, liver, and spleen are not. A good rifle sp will destroy FAR more tissue inside the chest than it ever touches directly with the bullet, <font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font>.

Your quoted 308 performance is bs, because it's from a 24" barrel, which you AINT got on your autorifle. :) With the 150 gr loads, a 20" barrel has 2700 fps, and if they aint boattails, they are down to 2300 fps in less than 200 yds. So your 308 doesn't really have all that much 'power" and range after all.

Too bad you are so cheap and lazy, but that's the sort of people who DESERVE to lose.
 

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84 C4 said:
BTW: Can you still get those 7.62mm, W. German bullets?
I have three cases of hirt that I am saving until I can find more.

I've heard that some of the 80's aussie stuff will also fragment, but haven't heard anything beyond rumor.

The temporary wound channel thing has been pretty much examined and discarded as a major factor.

Most tissue is far more elastic than you'd beleive. It is the permanent wound channel that matters most. That's why a round passing through a lung does far more damage than a round through the chest that doesn't hit a lung. Yes, the lung will collapse, but the shockwave doesn't do that much damage.

I doubt that GK would be able to tell if damage was caused by the permanent channel, by clumsy autopsy methods, or just by wishful thinking.

There's been a lot of research on wound ballistics, notably by the army since they needed to know how to treat soldiers wounded in battle, and how to inflict the maximum wounds possible to the enemy.

I'm torn between blindly accepting the words of a known liar, that is incapable of rational debate (i.e.: a drama queen) and the studies done by the Army. I just don't know which one to beleive.

:devil:
 

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Hirt is hirtenberger, sorry if you didn't know the name - I just realized that if you were asking, you probably didn't know...

:devil:
 

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What is pithitic is gunkid still 'thinks' his 5.56 velocity is from a 20 inch barrel and he ignores the fact he favors the 11 inch CAR pos (the loser of loser guns.)

In Vietnam they complained the CAR wouldn't stop VC even at 20 yards. SF started using AKs as a result. The CAR looks cool but it's looks don't match it's performance.

If you want a 5.56, I strongly suggest the 20 inch AR or M-16A2. Even the 16 inchers start taking the weapon into the short range category. That is why they keep trying and trying to make special ammo for the 5.56 so as the at least APPROXIMATE the 7.62x51 in ability.
 
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