[andy]

so WHAT if you get a lung hit, hmm? lack of oxygen isn't going to shut the guy down for MANY seconds. Shock is your ONLY realistic hope of attaining the 1/2 second (or less) INSTANT stop that you need,when you are attacked, under typical civilian, JUSTIFIABLE homicide conditions.

 

[Hard Rock]

Ugh, where do I begin with this? While I agree that a lung shot isn't going to incapacitate someone immediately, it is debilitating to a point for several reasons. First of all, let me say that the information I have is from people that have been lung shot. I know several of them. First problem is that while you aren't getting oxygen, you are getting bleeding into the lung. If you sustained a single lung hit, this is not a fatal problem and you can fuction to a large degree depending on your personal constitution. Second problem is dependent on where in the lung you took the hit. If you sustained a hit in the brachial tubes, you do run a higher risk of drowning in your own blood. Another issue is if the lung collapses. I don't know if you've ever experienced that or not but it can be extremely painful. Combine that with a bullet wound and you can guess the level of pain. Third thing is something you mention... shock. A lung hit causes a degree of shock. Again, it depends on your personal constitution and resolve.

One person I know took a .223 round in his lung. He was able to complete his job and survive the hit. He has a very high constitution. Another person I know that took a lung hit got punched by a .38 special. He curled up into a ball and stayed that way until the paramedics arrived. Both were survivable but the difference was in the attitude and the determination of the people being hit.

Mike

 

[GBullet]

ucan HOLD your breath fo 60 secs or more so WHAT if you get a lung hit, hmm? lack of oxygen isn't going to shut the guy down for MANY seconds.

When you hold your breath, you are still have oxygen in your lungs.

Shock is your ONLY realistic hope of attaining the 1/2 second (or less) INSTANT stop that you need,when you are attacked, under typical civilian, JUSTIFIABLE homicide conditions.

And what mechanism of physics causes this "shock"?

If a bullet striking at 2200 feet per second causes such awesome shock and stops large animals so well, then why do you consider an AK bullet at 2300 so weak?

 

[mrostov]

This is why Sykes and Fairbairn always recommended unloading your weapon as fast as you could into an opponent at the typical urban gunfight range their Shanghai cops would encounter (about 8ft).

There's a LOT of unknown variables here that go case by case, like if the person is utterly hyped up on drugs, does the bullet fragment, was a vital organ pulverized, etc. A high velocity bullet through the hand, an extremely painful wound, will knock the fight out of many people.

 

[andy]

u can EASILY still have oxygen in a lung that's been hit by a typical handgun bullet, and certainly the OTHER lung can still function. I have a brother who's only HAD one lung for many years, now. A hole in the chest wall., or even an entrance AND exit hole, does NOT necessarily cause a pneumo-thorax collapse. The skin can "shift", and clothing can help close off that hole. Naturally, a large exit hole makes this less likely to occur. "holding" the air in your lungs is not much of the issue, <font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font>. It's the oxygen that's ALREADY in the BLOOD, on the way to the BRAIN, that matters.

The mammalian BRAIN KEEPS 5 second's worth of oxygenated blood IN the cranium. As that supply gets low, the heart pumps ANOTHER 5+seconds worth of oxygenated blood to the brain. So a lung hit leaves the brain at LEAST 10 seconds worth of functioning,a nd if the OTHER lung is still functional, the time frame could easily be much longer.

I never said AK round, if SOFTPOINT, was feeble. NOTICE, <font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font>, that I don't insist on a BALL bullet in the pistol being worth a hoot, at ANY speed? I say a PREFRAG, 3 segmented bullet is, at 2200 fps. The SAME physics as tears apart any fluid filled container that is struck by such a bullet, <font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font>. The incompressibility of fluids. U know, HYDRAULICS? Basic engineering theory.

The sort of loads used by the Shanghai cops (lrn .38's, etc) that's the best you can do, given the fact that not neaarly enough training was possible to give them the HEAD hit option. With proper loads, tho, you can tear up a guy MORE with one shot than you can with 5-6 such .38 hits.

 

[mrostov]

The Shanghai uniformed cops were issued .45ACP M1911's and the detectives were issued S&W .45LC DA snub nose revolvers with the hammer spur, the front of the triggerguard, and the sights cut off.

 

[andy]

LATER, maybe, but most were using 38 long colt revolvers, according to Fairbairn's own writings, with some 380 Colt auto's being present. He said that the small handed Chinese often couldn't get aproper firing grasp on the larger guns.