[Stillwater]

What is needed, is to bring some sanity and direction to this forum. If you don't have something positive to add -- Stay away from the thread.

I would like to hear what some of you have done to prepare for a major event, such as a terroristic attack, or a natural catastrophy, that stops food deliveries and causes panic, riots and looting?

Just express yourself with a general idea of your preperations, and articulate a wish list of what you would lilke to have, if possible. The following is some of mine.

1. Although I have many guns, and thousands of rounds of ammunition, I want more guns and ammo on hand, than I have right now. I want two and three each of some of my firearms.

2. I want at least a years supply of food.

3. A generous, and continous supply of water that can't be interrupted, or contaminated.

4. A location conducive to survival.

a. Small town -- Where I can get to know the majority of
people around the area. I have arranged to purchased a
small farm, 40 acres in the PNW, if the owner agrees to my
offer.

b. An area conducive to good hunting and fishing.

c. I want an area that is free from targets of interest to
terrorists. An area free of potential refugees, from large
population centers.

d. I want an area that will far enough off of the beat path, so
it will be free of opportunistic brigands.

e. An area where the disposal, of the results of defensive
actions, against terrorists, brigands and looters can be safely
made. (Shoot, Shovel and Shutup!)

5. An adequate supply of additional camping gear, securely cached, where easily recovery can be effected in a time of stress.

6. Self-powered communications equipment either by using a hand-generated system, or solar cell powered system.

This is some of the items on my wish list:

1. Additional guns and ammunition, reloading supplies for trading, and caching.

2. An additional cached supply of cached long-term food.

3. Several water filtration units, both man-portable and static.

4. An additional shelter, hidden to use as a post-strike base forrendezvous and regrouping.

5. A fully stocked, mini-farmfarm with facilities for chickens, goats and pigs, and a garden patch.

6. A 500 gallon fuel storage tank, for vehicles I own.

7. A four wheel drive ATV. Preferably with a 600 CC engine or larger.

8. A General Coverage shortwave radio.

9. A Ham Radio transceiver, with adequate antennas systems.

10. Three GPS (global position satellite) receivers loaded with topographical information. One GPS for use, two for the Cache.

What are your plans and aspirations?

 

[andy]

if u need more guns than u now have

or ammo, it's cause you have too many of the "toy" types, and if you need more ammo, it's cause you lack adequate skill, the right gear, the right tactics. 100 rds of centerfire rifle, 200 rds of .22lr, 20 rds of centerfire pistol will either be a great plenty for shtf, or you are screwing up so badly that no amount of ammo would help. The only realistic answer is to remain undetected. That means, in either thickly wooded hills, or darkness, and the use of sound suppressors. cached food, traps, and nets. What little shooting is needed, better be 90+$ .22lr, or you are screwing up. That being the case, you are going to pick up lots of guns and ammo from the dead, to either be used or bartered with later.

Caches are great,but keep them small, scattered, shallow, dug and accessed at night,in the center of a thicket. Check the next day for any signs of digging. Food caches have to have a Sakrete"cap" over them, several inches thick, and several feet in diameter. More is needed in bear country. Don't mix food or metal items with other types of gear, if you can help it. Protect the stuff with a double wall of PVC, so that if freezing-thawing cracks it, you still have protection. Deep burial can mean earth pressure cracks both of your containers, or that water will somehow pierce them. Frozen ground can also mean no access to such burials. Many areas are too rocky to permit such burials, too.

Caches should be made along your route, too, if it's going to take you more than a very few days to WALK to your retreat. Vehicles are not to be trusted with your life, especially 4 wheeled ones. All they are is tempting TARGETS for those with no preparation(except an AK).

A basic BOB should be all you need, because you should have enough knowledge and skill to make it suffice. If you need more gear, more training is actually far more important.

Given the lack of the (far more likely to be needed) hand to hand and ccw pistol skills, I'd say so few can actually HANDLE shtf that basically the entire issue is going to be one of pure luck, for all but maybe 1 in a million. People cant' even be bothered to learn enough to handle vicious attacks (which occur to THOUSANDS of people every day) so how many are going to be really ready for WW3, hmm? Doing so, in nearly all cases, requires breaking lots of laws, and the sheep aint going to do THAT.

 

[84 C4]

First thing I would grab is my Marlin 336 (.35 Rem) and several boxes of ammo. As well as, at least, one set of clean clothes, and socks...lots of socks, and an extra pair of boots. Everything else can be cultivated from the land, need a water filter? Use spare cloth or fabric. Firewood? That's everywhere. Food? Well, that's everywhere, too. Beech Nut would be hard to find, though.

If it becomes absolutely necessary, I'd start making bows and arrows, and make clothes from animal hides. Our ancestors survived for thousands of years like that, no reason why I shouldn't be able to.

 

[Rich Z]

Personally, I think a lot will depend on the type of sh!t it is that hits the fan. No one can prepare for every eventuallity.

If it is a contagion that leaves 8 out of 10 people dead, how do you stock up on pure luck?

Nuclear attack? How many people have bunkers and live in them most of their lives?

Realistically, what events could really throw us all into a state where chaos would be the rule?

And knowing Murphy's Law, even if you plan for every conceivable scenario you can think of, chances are that TEOLAWKI will result from something you never even thought of.

I'm not saying to not bother preparing for anything, but be realistic about it and not let it color your judgement on every facet of your life. People have probably been doing this ever since the Great Depression, and have died of old age with their cellars filled with stocks and provisions. Just in case.

 

[bucfan]

I haven't given it much thought. All the ammo and weapons in the world will be no match to the nukes. Personally I think it will be deceases that will take you out in the long run. Also I think all of the shtf talk only makes us weaker to the anti gun croud because it brings the dooms day croud out, and we all know how much of extremists they are. It gives the persona that every person that has guns are stocking up for WWIII. That is why all of the so called assult weapon bands get adopted. I think you would be better off saving your money for retirement because depression is more likely tohappen than shtf. But I guess these days depression will be shtf???? You have to first survive the initial cause of shtf, and the only way will be a bomb shelter, not ammo and atv's.

Nick

 

[andy]

90+% of nukes won't go off, 90% of those

which do wont come NEAR their targets. The EMP, and the natural deteriorization of nuke weapons will see to that. The maintenance on them is crap. I've seen that, first hand, in Korea.

 

[andy]

u have MANY hours to take shelter

from the fallout. The actual blast zone is very, very small, at most a VERY few miles in diameter. In the town or city, all you have to do to take shelter from the fallout is get into a sewer. In the countryside, it only takes about 2 hours to dig into a creekbank5 feet deep, turn to 1 side, and dig back in, parellel with the bank, enough to be shielded from the radiation. This assumes, of course, that you have an E tool and an ice axe or mattock at-hand.

At the time of the blast, the radioactive particles are sucked up into the mushroom cloud. It takes hours for them to fall to earth, and many of them are swept many miles from ground zero, by the jet stream. If lots of them are going off, the wind direction and speed will be ANYBODY'S random guess.

 

[Stillwater]

Originally posted by Rich Z
Personally, I think a lot will depend on the type of sh!t it is that hits the fan. No one can prepare for every eventuallity.

The next national problem that will face the United States, other than a terrorist incident, will be another Great Depression.

If it is a contagion that leaves 8 out of 10 people dead, how do you stock up on pure luck?

The last contagion incident that the United States suffered was the polio epidemic of the late thirties, forties and early fifties. There is nothing that can be done to protect a survivor from an epidemic, except be at a long distance from the point of contagion.

What if a terrorist organization caused a biological attack? The only site that would be probable for a terrorist biological attacks are large population centers. What other site would be of value to a terrorist?

Nuclear attack? How many people have bunkers and live in them most of their lives?

The only way the United States is going to suffer a nuclear attack is an all out war. Not a very likely event since the demise of the Soviet Union. China may become a beligerent over middle east oil, as China trys to become a dominant world economic power.

Realistically, what events could really throw us all into a state where chaos would be the rule?

As I mentioned, a Great Depression could cause strife, riots and looting in the cities.

In California, or more probably the whole of the west coast, these states are very are susceptable to large earthquakes. If the predicted big earthquake ever hits California there will be pandemonium.

The largest cities only have an average, of a seven day food supply, according to emergency service organization sources.

If trucks, or trains can't get into the city, to deliver food stuffs, how will food be delivered. What will keep the natives fropm becoming restless?

A biological scare would send people into the country side, probably totally unprepared.

People are just not as lawabiding, as they were during the last Great Depression. This lawless attitude will be acted out on the streets.

It is a proven fact that the police cannot control riots. The National Guard would have to be activated. How long would that take?

And knowing Murphy's Law, even if you plan for every conceivable scenario you can think of, chances are that TEOLAWKI will result from something you never even thought of.

Who can prepare for ever incident? I just won't be around the most probable areas that incidents can happen in.

I'm not saying to not bother preparing for anything, but be realistic about it and not let it color your judgement on every facet of your life. People have probably been doing this ever since the Great Depression, and have died of old age with their cellars filled with stocks and provisions. Just in case.

My family stocked food everytime they could since the Great Depression. When my mother, and the rest of my family died off. I brought their slarge tock of food stuff to my house.

I remember the end of the great depression. I remember commodity stores. I remember meals being fixed where my mother would eat at one meal, and my uncle would eat at the other.

When my Uncle got over being a law abiding person, and started poaching, they we ate well.

Bill

 

[RIKA]

I prefer to be very prepared. My larder is extremely well stocked with things that we regularly eat and rotate regularly. Food, water, guns, ammo, its there if needed and will eventually be used at one time or another.

RIKA

 

[KJUN]

> The next national problem that will face the United States, other than a terrorist incident, will be another Great Depression.


"MAY," not "will." I agree that thisis the most likely possibility, though....other than just a slowly growing over-oppressive federal government.

> What if a terrorist organization caused a biological attack? The only site that would be probable for a terrorist biological are large population centers. What other site would be of value to a terrorist?

You miss the point, though. If somewhere like Houston got hit, people would spread out of there like rats from a sinking ship. That would bring the biological pathogen into ALL of the small towns within a couple of HUNDRED or more miles, I believe. It would easily reach to San Antonio and New Orleans. From San Antonio to Dallas, from New orleans to Atlanta, from Dallas to ????

> The only way the United States is going to suffer a nuclear attack is an all out war. Not a very likely event since the demise of the Soviet Union.

Oh, I don't know. The right terrorist group in the right area in league with the right government MIGHT be able to get one or two "small" ones smugled in and set off on the ground somewhere.

KJ

 

[KJUN]

6. A 500 gallon fuel storage tank, for vehicles I own.

Well, remember that gas has a VERY short lifespan even with "stabilizers" in it. A 500 gallon tank may just result in wasted gas unless you use it for trading material, but that doesn't sound like it would jive with the rest of the "avoid people" tone of your first post. I think I would put more time/money into non-gas drinking pieces of equipment (horses, etc.) and keep less gas on hand...since it won't last long and you don't want to advertise your "wealt" by driving all over the place, anyway.

Diesel lasts longer, but still doesn't have an unlimited shelf life.

KJ

 

[Rich Z]

Actually, the more I read about biological warfare, the worse it sounds for humanity in general. I don't think I would really want to know about the secret strides that have been made in weaponizing already terrifying naturally occuring pathogens. Recombinant DNA technology and nearly unlimited funding is a very scary combination.

All it would take is some pathogen that is close to 100 percent lethal, has a very long incubation period while still being highly contagious, and no symptoms whatsoever until it is too late to contain it. It would knock the survivors right back into the stone age.

Any major transportation center in the world would be the release point and from there it will be self spreading. It wouldn['t even take any sort of delivery mechanism other than a single person already contaminated to mingle with other people. By the time anyone knew how deep the doo-doo was we were in, the game would already be over with.

Yeah, logical and reasonable people would think that no one would unleash such a thing that could wipe out humanity. But I wouldn't bet heavily on that. Maybe they would create a vacine before release, but there are fanatical peoples in the world where that woudn't matter even a little bit.

Yeah, there would be panic. Futile, since the damage has probably already been done, but there nonetheless.

Will you survive? Depends on who you had contact with since the pathogen was released. If that incubation period is only 1 month, how many people could that be? If you plan on this sort of scenario, what the heck do you do? You will not have any more advance warning than anyone else, so do you break off all contact with the rest of humanity NOW and forever? That would be the ONLY solution, you know.

Of all the SHTF scenarios I have heard of, this is the one that would be easiest for an enemy to deliver.

Heck, if you want to read something about naturally occuring pathogens, pick up a copy of THE COMING PLAGUE[/b} by Laurie Garrett sometime. This is scary enough stuff by itself.

 

[Stillwater]

Originally posted by KJUN > The next national problem that will face the United States, other than a terrorist incident, will be another Great Depression.

"MAY," not "will." I agree that thisis the most likely possibility, though....other than just a slowly growing over-oppressive federal government.

The seeds of a great Depression are already planted. The stockmarket is over blown. Let some incident happen and see what the stock market does. Watch the tailspin it will go into.

Another looming problem for the entire southwest is the drought that is currently deepening. California has lost, in court, most of the substantial amount of water California used to get from the Colorado River. California still gets the water, but now they have to pay for it. If Arizona needs to use the water for themselves. where is southern California going to get water to make up for the loss? The Periferal Canal is maxed out, so no hope of additiional water there.

> What if a terrorist organization caused a biological attack? The only site that would be probable for a terrorist biological are large population centers. What other site would be of value to a terrorist?

You miss the point, though. If somewhere like Houston got hit, people would spread out of there like rats from a sinking ship. That would bring the biological pathogen into ALL of the small towns within a couple of HUNDRED or more miles, I believe. It would easily reach to San Antonio and New Orleans. From San Antonio to Dallas, from New orleans to Atlanta, from Dallas to ?????

I miss what point? When I get moved, this fall, I will be over three hundred miles from any major population center, with two major mountain ranges in between.

I have carefully studied wind flow charts to place myself, as much as humanly possible, away from prevailing winds that would come from a possible attack site.

What happens in major cities, will have very little effect on me in the short term. In the long term, there is little that can be reliably predicted ... You just don't know!

I have planned my movements according to the hazards that could presented by pathogens traveling with people, or on air currents.

> The only way the United States is going to suffer a nuclear attack is an all out war. Not a very likely event since the demise of the Soviet Union.

Oh, I don't know. The right terrorist group in the right area in league with the right government MIGHT be able to get one or two "small" ones smugled in and set off on the ground somewhere. KJ

Since I won't even be close to a major poulation center, how could that effect me, out in the country side? As I said, the closest major population center is over three hundred miles away.

Are the intrepid terrorists going to pass up on a city, of over one million people, to attack a town of 500 people. Think on that for awhile.

Bill

 

[84 C4]

Rich Z...

Biological warfare is self-stabalizing. The bacteria and viruses are living organisms, and would like to stay that way. It is almost impossible for a virus or bacteria to wipe out any living animal or plant species. As the population of suitable hosts begins to fall, the infectious agent will "evolve" into a less lethal strain. Even single celled organisms and viruses have an interest in survival.

 

[Rich Z]

That may very well be true for naturally occuring pathogens, but not for custom tailored weaponized strains. They would not be designed with the long term best interests of the pathogen itself in mind. If anything, if possible, the pathogen itself would probably be designed to self destruct after a set period of time. Unless the designer had in mind a truly doomsday bug.

If a pathogen truly had the welfare of its host in mind, then it wouldn't really be a pathogen. It would be benign.

I believe that I read somewhere that Ebola is fatal to 80 percent of the people who contract it. That is a naturally occuring pathogen. It probably would not take much tweaking at all to up that percentage considerably. Heck even a bad luck mutation could make that jump.

What is the fatality rate of AIDS?

Quite frankly, I firmly believe that it is impossible for anything to be impossible.....

 

[Stillwater]

Actually, the more I read about biological warfare, the worse it sounds for humanity in general. I don't think I would really want to know about the secret strides that have been made in weaponizing already terrifying naturally occuring pathogens. Recombinant DNA technology and nearly unlimited funding is a very scary combination.[/i]

Biological warfare is the most scary of all scenarios to contemplate, at least for me. There is very little defense against pathogens.

As new pathogens are developed, who will develope a serum, or antidote against them? If a pathogen is developed in China, or North Korea, how would we know about it here? Would we know about it in time to develope an antidote? Probably not!

The gas mask's being sold at sky high prices in surplus stores are out of date, and useless. I heard one commentator saying there was a reason why gas masks were surplused. It was because they were no longer a viable device, because of their age.[/i][/i][/quote]

All it would take is some pathogen that is close to 100 percent lethal, has a very long incubation period while still being highly contagious, and no symptoms whatsoever until it is too late to contain it. It would knock the survivors right back into the stone age.

You are really trying to ruin my sleep tonight, aren't you!

Any major transportation center in the world would be the release point and from there it will be self spreading. It wouldn't even take any sort of delivery mechanism other than a single person already contaminated to mingle with other people. By the time anyone knew how deep the doo-doo was we were in, the game would already be over with.

Can you imagine the pandemonium that would reign, if a quarantined area were set up, that included the City of Los Angeles and it's environs?

Yeah, logical and reasonable people would think that no one would unleash such a thing that could wipe out humanity. But I wouldn't bet heavily on that. Maybe they would create a vacine before release, but there are fanatical peoples in the world where that woudn't matter even a little bit.

I must not be a logical and reasonable person, because I expect just what you have mentioned to occur.

Yeah, there would be panic. Futile, since the damage has probably already been done, but there nonetheless.

Reference my remarks about setting up a large quarantine area above. How do you think the unaffected people, corraled within the quarantine, area would do?

Will you survive? Depends on who you had contact with since the pathogen was released. If that incubation period is only 1 month, how many people could that be? If you plan on this sort of scenario, what the heck do you do? You will not have any more advance warning than anyone else, so do you break off all contact with the rest of humanity NOW and forever? That would be the ONLY solution, you know.

There goes tomorrow nights sleep too.

There would be nothing done before the fact, and damned little that could be done after the fact, except a rigorous quarantine.

Of all the SHTF scenarios I have heard of, this is the one that would be easiest for an enemy to deliver.

This would be the easiest one for an enemy to deliver, given our open ports and borders.

I think that another SHTF scenario that may just as well happen is the Big Earthquake happening. Or, the onset of another Great Depression.

Heck, if you want to read something about naturally occuring pathogens, pick up a copy of THE COMING PLAGUE by Laurie Garrett sometime. This is scary enough stuff by itself.

I will find that book -- I will probably lose a lot more sleep after reading it.

Bill

 

[Stillwater]

Re: Rich Z...

Biological warfare is self-stabalizing. The bacteria and viruses are living organisms, and would like to stay that way. It is almost impossible for a virus or bacteria to wipe out any living animal or plant species. As the population of suitable hosts begins to fall, the infectious agent will "evolve" into a less lethal strain. Even single celled organisms and viruses have an interest in survival.

A ray of hope emerges within the doom and gloom.

You say this, as if you have information you are aware of. I hope you're right.

Would you mind explaining why you think this way?

Bill

 

[Magnum88C]

As for the original question, I don't plan for any scenario (short of a hurricane, since we get hit 6- 7 times a year). Instead I just have the equipment and supplies to react accordingly. I haven't thought of (or supplied for) everything, but what I have will give a good head start in a catastrophe.


Re the biological weaponry. Most is designed to become nonlethal in 3-5 generations (i.e. times the virus/bacteria mutates). Reason being they are designed to eliminate ot "take the fight out" of populations, so an enemy can move in and use the resources without having to fight for them. Terrorists would probably get their hands on military grade stuff. Terrorists sitting in multi-trillion dollar underground command centers and weapons labs creating doomsday weapons are the stuff of James Bond movies, not real life. That's what governments do.

Oops, there goes another night's sleep eh?

 

[RIKA]

Do you mind if I insert a note of philosophy here?

I and my loved ones have prepared all we can. We start dying the moment that we are born and life is a crap shoot anyway. Any of us could be killed on the freeway tomorrow or we could die of an aneurism(sp?) that we didn't even know that we had.

Live or die, I'm not going to lose any sleep about it. Maybe death would even be preferable since I've never experienced it. I'm just going to keep on keepin' on and doing my best.

RIKA

 

[84 C4]

Re: Re: Rich Z...

A ray of hope emerges within the doom and gloom.

You say this, as if you have information you are aware of. I hope you're right.

Would you mind explaining why you think this way?

Bill

It's really quite simple. All living creatures (well, most of them) seek a balance within their chosen environment. It's the most basic concept of an ecosystem. In fact, new research suggests that human DNA actually incorporates ancient viruses to which man was exposed to millenia (?) ago. I'll see if I can find the article, I think it was in Popular Science(?).

Let's put it like this, it's all in the name of self-preservation. If a virus destroys it's environment, it will cease to exist. It's a common theme throughout human history, a viral or bacterial epidemic will emerge and devastate the population, then go underground, then emerge again when the population recovers. In more modern years, it's mostly due to artificial means (such as vaccines and penicillin immune TB). Nature ALWAYS seeks an equilibrium.