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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
it's capable of braining big critters at 3x the range Indians could arrow them with stone tipped arrows. or at the same distance frontiersmen could take them with a muzzleloader. So why aint that good enough, hmm? cause you aint rifleman or hunter enough to get that "close"? With a silencer, misses often dont make the critters flee, so you get to try again.

If hitting or missing any one animal, or not getting a shot, especially on small game, is a big issue for you, your tactics are stupid. Animals rarely leave a very small area in which they were born. You'll get other chances at that critter and it's far more efficient to gather flesh food with traps, snares, nets, fish poison, trotlines, birdlime and the like. Big animals can be snared to drag logs.

The properly set up, scoped silenced M4 can snipe effectively to 1/4 mile. that's about 2x the range that the average guy in US can do the same with an iron sighted AK, or 30-30, 3x the range of 12 ga slugs, or 30 carbine, or pistol caliber carbine and about 50% further than the same guy can achieve with an iron sighted bolt clunker, using typical ball ammo. and just as far, if not further, than such a man can manage with a scoped, modern bolt action and factory sps. So why aint such a range enough for you?
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
the scoped M4 will hit more prairie dogs than miss at 200 yds. ditto crows at 150 yds, and again, the silencer lets you take repeat shots, quite often. The M4 expands varmint type sp's just fine to 250 yds, taking coyotes. It will also take deer and hogs very nicely, to 150 yds, using a deep penetrating sp, like the Nosler partition.

the 11.5" barreled AR, with 7.5" of silencer, is a handy assembly. No silenced 308 is handy. The 11" AR can be taken down and concealed in a pack, attache case, gym bag, grocery sack, or even, with mods, under normal clohthing. So you can get into place, whack a warlord and leave again, looking like everyone else, and do so silently, with no flash at night. no 308 offers you this ability
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
the Cierner .22lr conversion unit for the shorty AR lets you practice on indoor ranges. .22 units for the FAL and Hk are very hard to find, very expensive, require a fragile barrel liner, and the 308's recoil is enough greater to make the .22 a poor training tool for the 308 in rapidfire. The silenced 223 AR is so mild in blast and recoil that (un-silenced) 22 unit practice is VERY transferrable to skill at hitting with the silenced 223. IN fact, it's so mild that airsoft practice results in 223 skill.

The 4 lb, carbon fiber AR is so lw and compact that one handed use is quite feasible. You CAN be helping a loved one walk or carrying a kid, ya know! The 10 lbs saved with my system, as vs a canned M1A, with scope, means a helluva lot of fatigue is lifted off of you, quite possibly meaning no injury, no illness, no overlooking of something vital, like a booby trap or enemy activity It can mean the inclusion in your pack of NVD, soft armor, more water, food, or meds, all a LOT more likely to mean something than the extra "power" or "reach" of the 308
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
M4 easily wins a lot of matches in combat style. BE matches mean nothing, which is why their numbers have been falling for decades now. Take off the ear protection and SEE which rifle can reliably hit small targets, repeatedly at range, the silenced M4 or the noisy M1A. :) go live in the bush for a while, with a noisy M1A and again with a silenced M4 and .22 unit (normally kept in your pack, out of sight). SEE which calls in problems and runs off game, and which keeps you fed and out of trouble.

fire both in a vehicle, and in a small room, without ear protection, as in an emergency situation. See which lets you keep hitting the target and which almost makes you drop the gun and hold your ears!

Give a boy or a petite women a try with both. see which lets them hit well in just an hour, and which takes them weeks or months to learn to do well (if they EVER do, that is).
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
those saying that an M4 is "short ranged" or lacking in power are NEVER seen criticizing those who advocate the shotgun for a shtf weapon, nor .22lr only advocates, pistol caliber carbine advocates, bow and crossbow fans, etc. Why is that? :)

Face it, the silenced, scoped, luminous sighted M4, with .22 unit, is by FAR the most versatile of longarms possible. If you can't legally have a silencer, tough stuff. that does not change the facts of this gear/choice being superior, ya know.

the M4 is the multi-tool of longarms. Sure, a big, heavy toolbox of stuff is more capable than just a multi-tool, but when you can't have that toolbox with you, what good is it? What good is a 308 or 12 ga when you've run out of ammo for it? what good is a bolt action when you need rapidfire, or a shotgun when you need range? how will you carry 3-longarms and a pack, and enough ammo to make them worth having? HOw will you shoot looters or game with a gun that you aint got with you? How to make them wait while you go get the "proper gun for the job" If it's shtf, there will be no safe place to leave your Ak, while you hunt with shotgun or bolt action and if you need the range or the rapidfire, you'll be dead if you have only those limited guns.

Funny how guys can have their match/sniper gun taken down for half an hour of bore cleaning, deciding when to do that, but the silenced M4 user just CANT effectively decide when to install the .22 unit, and them swiftly swap back to 223 softpoints when the .rimfire thing is done with. :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
A very high quality silencer for the AR can be made in half a day. if it's found cached on public land someplace, no fingerprints or DNA on the can or the container, what proof that YOU did it, hmm?

it's perfectly legal to have half a dozen engine freeze plugs with centerdrill marks on them. It' legal to have the inside tube welded inside of the sleeve tube, too, with the vent holes insde of the interior tube's rear 2.5" and with the copper screewire wrapped between the tubes. as long as there's no threading or even a hole thru the rear end plug, there's no way to attach the device to a gun, so it's not a silencer. :)

if you've already made the baffle forming set, (legal to possess) and have the screen wire cut into rectangles, you can drill the holes in the freeze plugs (with a hand drill) make the baffles and "pack" the inside tube of the 223 can in about 2 hours. It's not illegal to have screen wire, folks. Nor neoprene for making the "wipes', nor washers that just happen to be the right size. It's also very easy to scatter around such components and conceal them. Once shtf, gun laws, like all other laws, will mean nothing at all. You can't claim to be a serious survivalist and not have a means of silencing your rifle.
 

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I actually like a few of the current AR based designs...Bravo Company, and a few others ( some gas impingement, some piston) have a few that have a good setup- whether you're like me and lime " bare bones, low profile iron sights, good barrel&trigger " or " rails everywhere/ Barbie For Guys Clamp everything on".
I DO prefer other designs, but have nothing AGAINST AR/M16/M4geries...now that more caliber options and 5.56 loads are available.
 

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Bravo Company is good stuff a friend of mine has one rifle built with an upper of theirs.

I'm not too much on overly decked out AR's either but I have become a fan of free float tubes/forends to wring the most out of whatever caliber I'm shooting out of an AR type platform.
 

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Bravo Company is good stuff a friend of mine has one rifle built with an upper of theirs.

I'm not too much on overly decked out AR's either but I have become a fan of free float tubes/forends to wring the most out of whatever caliber I'm shooting out of an AR type platform.
Wayyyyyyyyy (I can add more "y"s but you get the point) overgassed though.

Fixing it with the buffering system is not an excuse.

I've installed many "BCM brand" barrels and the ports are silly.
 

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I wonder what's the point of doing that? Poor QC or just what they think is "needed"?

Are they over gassed to the point of almost ripping off case rims?

I've seen Colt M4 types do that in conjunction with WW/USA M193.
 

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I wonder what's the point of doing that? Poor QC or just what they think is "needed"?

Are they over gassed to the point of almost ripping off case rims?

I've seen Colt M4 types do that in conjunction with WW/USA M193.
No they won't rip off rims. It's deliberate and many manufacturers and OEMs are doing it, they want customers who feed their guns low powered ammo in the northern winters to ave the bolt cycle + a margin just in case.

I jokingly say that it's to sell H2 and H3 buffers, but that's just humor.

Given DI, with proper ammo in anything but freezing conditions this makes cyclic rate a little high and doesn't do any favors for the extractor. The heavier the buffer you need to get closer to ideal, the more reciprocating mass you have and the more the gun is going to move compared to a holistically designed system.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
when a DI gun wears a can, it's ALREADY "overgassed", and just 1-2 shots will suffice to "warm up" the gun just fine, even at temps well below 0F degrees. Most cans are poor choices for AR's, cause the makers don't have enough sense to vent an interior tube into a sleeve area, ie, with another tube coaxially mounted around the main baffle tube. That's also why their expansion chambers don't work well. :) when you vent off the hottest, highest pressure gases into a sealed tube that has no access to the main tube (until pressures and heat have dropped) it increases suppression and takes a big load off of the donut baffles. guys don't even know which way to have the freeze plugs facing! :)
 

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Gun kid, personally I like the CMMG Echo .22 LR conversion kit for my AR, with Black Dog magazines.
 

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when a DI gun wears a can, it's ALREADY "overgassed", and just 1-2 shots will suffice to "warm up" the gun just fine, even at temps well below 0F degrees. Most cans are poor choices for AR's, cause the makers don't have enough sense to vent an interior tube into a sleeve area, ie, with another tube coaxially mounted around the main baffle tube. That's also why their expansion chambers don't work well. :) when you vent off the hottest, highest pressure gases into a sealed tube that has no access to the main tube (until pressures and heat have dropped) it increases suppression and takes a big load off of the donut baffles. guys don't even know which way to have the freeze plugs facing! :)
Suppressors definitely over gas ARs, but since 2008ish that has been increasingly mitigated by a number of designs.

A problem with having a giant blast chamber, or narrowing down something like older Omega baffles to the coaxial tube concept, is that one gets a massive amount of FRP. 4-8 dB of it in the more extreme cases depending how out of proportion things are. This was sometimes a major issue with reflex designs as well.

Some designs which work include incorporating a conical shroud into the mount cap with entry holes with space around the mount (depending on the mounting system), or a similar but extended system which vents into the outer tube the mounting cap and its necessary hardware and the rest of the stack.

Really doesn't take much. The design concept also greatly improves the efficacy of the blast area and the blast baffle because gas is getting sucked via pressure differentials both rearward and at an angle off of bore axis (which is where the backpressure reduction comes from).
 

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Attached is an example. M4-2000 (photo not mine, just annotated by me). Used to be the benchmark for a full auto, all purpose AR platform suppressor.

If your gun isn't already overgassed, that little bit right there prevents the need for an RTV mod and you won't be eating gas.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 · (Edited)
they still haven't wised up and added a completely separate, coaxial tube round the baffle tube. that's a much better use of the volume of a can. whatever gases are bled off into it CANNOT reenter the expansion chamber until the pressures there are reduced to less than what's in the sleeve area. The wraps of stainless steel and copper screen wire in the sleeve area thus have a real chance to soak up a lot of the heat of those diverted gases.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I"m pretty sure that all the 22 units that use their own mag (not an insert in an AR mag) are the atchisson/ciener design. I believe Jon used to import them, probably still does. whoever makes them for Ciener probably makes the others, and maybe Jon imports them, with a different name on them. Jon's a complete ahole to do biz with, so going thru some 3rd party is a good idea if you're not a smith.
 

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I"m pretty sure that all the 22 units that use their own mag (not an insert in an AR mag) are the atchisson/ciener design. I believe Jon used to import them, probably still does. whoever makes them for Ciener probably makes the others, and maybe Jon imports them, with a different name on them. Jon's a complete ahole to do biz with, so going thru some 3rd party is a good idea if you're not a smith.
The fully ANSI 14.5 compliant prints for the Ciener unit were leaked a while ago.

No telling who copied it after that happens. Toleranced and dimensioned. Who knows, people may have even scanned some samples.
 

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able to make and able to market are not the same thing
Definitely real talk there, seen that and have witnessed it doom many firms.

As for the Ciener, it's hardly complicated. Once the cat is out of the bag and simplified in print form, anyone can make it. Who does, and can market it, and who doesn't: who knows.

Holding the tolerances involved is mindless.
 
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