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Discussion Starter #1
80% if my 45 ammo is FMJ and I'm happy with that for certain application like running a supressor but I'm looking to expand so to speak. I was comparing Federals EFMJ with Hydra-Shok and HST. What are their strengths and weaknesses? What I'm understanding is 45s have enough mass to expand reliably and still get good penetration. I'm not running a 45 that's picky about hollow points so I don't see a particular advantage to EFMJ apart from if my primary would go down beyound repair and I pick up a 45 that did prefer FMJs (though off hand I haven't heard of 45s ever being picky in that way). Also I hear there are certain locations that prohibit JHP so EFMJ is ok there. Of HS, HST and EFMJ which has the best wound characteristics and barrier penetration? Anyone with thier own favorite please chime in, I'm collecting opinions right now.
 

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Unalist, I own a 1917 S&W Revolver, a Colt Series '70 1911, and a Glock 21. I have played around with all ammunition that's out there, and I don't think you will go wrong with plain /jane FMJ. I admit my night stand gun has 230 Grain Golden Sabres in it, but 230 Grain FMJ Remingtons would almost certainly do the job just as well. Let's face it, your punching a .45 caliber hole in your opposition, right? Do you think a hollow point that expands to .60 caliber is going to be that much more effective? Shoot him twice.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Terry G, enviable collection of 45s. If ever you feel like going to the range to show off feel free to give me a call. I'm coming around to your way of thinking about FMJ. I'm fighting my natural instinct to to get the Nth degree superior item. You never know when that .001 advantage makes ALL the difference. Of course superior is a subjective term. FMJ are more versitile and I value penetration over expansion.
 

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Here's another vote for 230 grain FMJ ball ammo. It always penetrates. One hole in, another hole out, and bone don't stop it.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
FMJ it is.

Why over complicate things? I've just got to try out my new SIG P220. (Thanks again grumpysfc for the heads up on Gunbroker.) It shoots like a dream so far. So let me re-ask about 45ACP.

I'm looking for a 230 FMJ that is:
1. Accurate (45-50m/yards I aim center mass of a bad guy, it delivers a fatal or debilitating hit in the center mass/chest area)
2. Reliable (I pull the trigger, the hammer falls, it goes bang!)
3. Reloadable (quality brass that can be reloaded)
4. Plentiful (available now and in the future most everywhere, preferable at Wal-mart)
5. Preferably inexpensive (doesn’t have to be but…)

I was looking at Federal Premium Gold Medal Match Ammunition 45 ACP 230 Grain Full Metal Jacket. I have to admit it looks like a more "quality" than I need to practice with and defend the household.

Any favorites or recommendations?
 

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Unalist I know the temptation is to look for top of the line, expensive ammo to help improve your accuracy. I fell into a P220 for $500 earlier this year, I wasn't looking for it, but an individual I know needed the money to get the transmission repaired in his truck, so the pistol came home with me. I was very surprised at how well it shot with Winchester USA brand (the infamous WWB/ Winchester White Box). The ammo is affordable, I can buy it at Walmart, goes bang every time and allows me to be able to practice. I don't know about 50M shots though. I tend to practice at 7, 15 and 25 meters most of the time with my pistols.
 

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The hornady exteme defense ammo has caught my eye lately, but I haven't tried any yet. It's a hollow point design, but the hollow point is filled with a polymer material. The theory is that the cavity can't become plugged because it starts out that way. Supposedly you get good expansion and penetration even through heavy clothing. I want to get some and shoot it through a variety of materials to see how it performs for me.

I have both 1911's and S&W M&p's in .45.
 

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The best would probably be along the lines of the Cor-Bon DPX with the Barnes bullets.

To be honest, though, unless you are worried about overpenetration, FMJ is not a bad choice. And I mean FMJ in any caliber.

He who shoots once is a fool.

I was always trained to shoot them to the ground. If you follow that tactic, bullet choice really doesn't matter much. A FMJ to the pump house or brain pan is going to have the same effect as a JHP. Plus, you can afford a hell of a lot more FMJ.

As for type. Sure, Federal Gold Match is great. But, it's a flippin' bullet, man. American Eagle, WWB, PMC, UMC, whatever, I don't have a preference. Whatever I can get a good deal on -- except for Wolf.
 

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.45 ball to the chest won't reliably stop a jackrabbit, chuck, alley cat, or ****. Try it for yourself, you'll see. It sucks as a manstopper. Nobody has enough real experience to say otherwise, on people, that is. forget the tight groups, when it's for real, you and everyone else misses the chest (A LOT) at 10 lousy yds. I've seen this happen with world class IPSC competitors, while wearing ear protection, in good light, on stationary targets. Just peer pressure, trying to go faster than they were capable. Just IMAGINE what being shot at does to your "cool", as compared to mere match pressure.
 

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You make some good points on missing under pressure -

Yes, stress causes groups to open up. Being shot at sucks - I know from first hand experience.

However, you don't train to miss. you train to hit what you are aiming at and to do so as accurately as possible. The more accurate you start out, the more accurate you will be when your shooting opens up under stress.

We perform to our level of training. It would be foolish to ignore this fact. Combat is not IPSC, and IPSC is not combat.

.4 forget the tight groups, when it's for real, you and everyone else misses the chest (A LOT) at 10 lousy yds. I've seen this happen with world class IPSC competitors, while wearing ear protection, in good light, on stationary targets. Just peer pressure, trying to go faster than they were capable. Just IMAGINE what being shot at does to your "cool", as compared to mere match pressure.
 

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Whether or not a bullet will stop a person depends on the same 3 things as real estate: location, location, location.

A general "shot to the chest" comment ios not specific enough to draw any conclusion from.

I specifically said "the pump house" -- jargon for the heart. A shot through the heart with a .45 FMJ will stop a person just as fast as any other bullet through the heart, that is severe enough to stop it, will.

The other area, the "brain pan" -- specifically the cerebellum or medula oblongata (SP?) will provide equally fast stop from any bullet able to penetrate and destroy them.

BTW, how many people have you shot with a .45ACP?
 

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He claims to have shot himself once with a .45 - does that count?

Whether or not a bullet will stop a person depends on the same 3 things as real estate: location, location, location.

A general "shot to the chest" comment ios not specific enough to draw any conclusion from.

I specifically said "the pump house" -- jargon for the heart. A shot through the heart with a .45 FMJ will stop a person just as fast as any other bullet through the heart, that is severe enough to stop it, will.

The other area, the "brain pan" -- specifically the cerebellum or medula oblongata (SP?) will provide equally fast stop from any bullet able to penetrate and destroy them.

BTW, how many people have you shot with a .45ACP?
 

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I like the hollowpoints myself.. mainly because they can expand. Since I reload, I find a load that I can shoot very well. Granted, the higher velocity does improve expansion. If that higher velocity causes one to be less accurate, then in my opinion, it doesn't appear to be a good choice..
I use the same philosophy I use in hunting.. accuracy first, velocity second.. I firmly believe, if you can put the bullet where it needs to go, it will do its job. Anything done to improve the bullet's capability, is a plus.. which includes hollowpointing.. or selecting a hollowpoint..
I purchase my hollowpoints from Roze Distribution.. They have the best prices on bullets.. Other than that, I cast lead RN bullets in the 230 grain weight.. and can hollowpoint them if I desire..
 

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If you can (reliably) hit the heart, you can also hit the brain. the latter is a guaranteed instant stop of hostilities. The former is not. The mammalian brain keeps 5 seconds worth of oxygenated blood in the cranium. You can blow the heart apart, and the critter can function for 5 seconds, shooting stabbing, clubbing you 4x per second, with EACH HAND. If the heart just send a "pump" of blood before you blew it apart, then the critter has TEN second's worth of blood with which to function. So get REAL, ok? Deer often run 50-100 yds with heart blown apart.

Men rarely show anything like the resistance to shock that animals do. i've seen many feral dogs run after a chest hit with a 4" 357 and jhp's. It's the RARE deer who stops in less than 50m with such a hit. .45 ball ammo, or 230 gr jhp's (which RARELy expand much, if at all in flesh) won't reliably stop a chuck or a ****. I've seen quite a few alleycats be rolled over by a chest hit from a .45 lrn or ball rd, and then get up and run for 50 ft or more.

Men run the 40 yd dash in 5 seconds, so I suggest that you NOT count upon blood loss or loss of organ function as your means of stopping an attack. Nearly all attacks occur at less than 20 ft, and he can be all OVER you from 20 ft in 2.0 seconds. Most attacks occur at less than 10 ft, and he can be all over you in , ONE second, from 10 ft, standing start. Some can leap at you and be on you in 3/4 second, from 10 ft away.
 

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I think you're still locked into the fallacy of the one-shot-stop.

No one, NO ONE, who's shot people for real, at least more than one incident, does anything but shoot them to the ground. That's for both pistols and rifles.

BTW you're wrong about resistance to shock on humans. Most people being shot that WE SEE, fall down because they fall to the "Oh $^@#! I'm shot!" factor, and they figure that if they stop, maybe they'll stop being shot and can get to a hospital to live.

People that are in it for blood can fight quite a bit harder than that. Not to mention, that many, if not most of the people I have to shoot as a civilian will be jacked up on coke, PCP, etc, and simply won't feel the hits. In the military, we keep getting sent to fight orientals (Arabs are considered oriental) who fight jacked up on opiates.

In either case, going for a one-shot-stop, is a fool's game.

When you shoot to the ground, you find that FMJ doesn't give up much, if anything to JHP. That's why high capacity rifles rule the battlefield and high capacity pistols rule the streets.
 

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This.

You shoot to end the threat. You don't stop shooting until the threat is over.

I think you're still locked into the fallacy of the one-shot-stop.

No one, NO ONE, who's shot people for real, at least more than one incident, does anything but shoot them to the ground. That's for both pistols and rifles.

BTW you're wrong about resistance to shock on humans. Most people being shot that WE SEE, fall down because they fall to the "Oh $^@#! I'm shot!" factor, and they figure that if they stop, maybe they'll stop being shot and can get to a hospital to live.

People that are in it for blood can fight quite a bit harder than that. Not to mention, that many, if not most of the people I have to shoot as a civilian will be jacked up on coke, PCP, etc, and simply won't feel the hits. In the military, we keep getting sent to fight orientals (Arabs are considered oriental) who fight jacked up on opiates.

In either case, going for a one-shot-stop, is a fool's game.

When you shoot to the ground, you find that FMJ doesn't give up much, if anything to JHP. That's why high capacity rifles rule the battlefield and high capacity pistols rule the streets.
 

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Human physiology varies greatly from person to person.
You cannot count on any round to consistently do anything.

Also don't forget that a pistol is a pistol, and a rifle a rifle.
Pistol rounds, now matter how state of the art wiz-bang tacticool the round will only do so much.
It's not a death ray.
Why crack it off even more in the hopes of saving a few bucks?

Repeated hits in the right places are key.

The golden rule is to shoot them until THEY think they are dead.
One shot stops are nice, but keep shooting until your target is incapable of fighting back.

None of this means that the extra margin of damage afforded to you by the hollowpoint is worthless.

JHPs provide extra damage and are vastly better than ball ammo in a pistol.
Recorded shootings bear this out and show a noteworthy difference.

Expecting ball ammo out of a pistol to provide an acceptable level of lethality is just asking for trouble.
Consider also that the military uses hardball or high pressure (often subgun) ammo.
Most ball ammo we see on the shelves at Wal-Mart is just not loaded that hot.

Also consider over penetration.
Every [ball] round that blasts through your target and hits your neighbor while they are sit in front of their TV has legal trouble written all over it.

How about your kids in the other room?

There are numerous reason why JHPs are better.
 

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I never said JHP doesn't have advantages.

However, terminal performance in multiple hit scenarios is not a big one. A person stopped by 5 hits with JHP (remember, if you're shooting them to the ground, you're not assessing effectiveness before firing the next shot), would probably go down with 5 rounds of FMJ as well.
 

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jhp's that REALLY expand, yes. 147 gr 9's, and 230 gr .45's do not expand much, if at all in flesh. You can shoot some critters yourself. NO ONE HAS EVER SEEN ME TOUT THE ONE SHOT STOP, so you are a liar, MR. I believe in delivering all the damage and shock that I can, as often and as fast as I can, and I believe that in spite of having 223 carbine type power in the 460 Rowland (70 grs at 2300 fps) 1-2 men in 100 can still manage to stay on their feet, possibly even after several chest hits. However, the same is true of 308 ball, and nobody worries about THAT. :)
 
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