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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
You'd BETTER keep that rifle either in hand or on the assault sling. The frontiersmen managed to do this with 15 lbs of muzzleloader, possibles bag and powder horn, and you can't manage it with a 6 lb CAR-15? You're a wuss, that's all. The use of the centerfire pistol better be EXTREMELY rare, at very close range, and be SETTLED with 1-2 shots, or you will survive only by luck.

The silenced rimfire pocket pistol, however, can have a bit more of a role, like GETTING a rifle, if yours is somehow lost or ruined. Like passing thru a town, hitching a ride, etc, without being seen to be armed, yet be able to deal with a punk or two with axes, etc, without having the entire population hear you do so. Like being able to take a dog or small critter quickly and with little effort or wasted motion. Like being able to suddenly draw the silenced M21 22 Beretta and brain a guard, or remove some other type of "problem" man or dog.

At 9" OAL, and 14 ozs loaded, the canned M21 is worthy of inclusion in the BOB. So is a 1 lb pocket 9mm, in a front pants pocket holster. If you need more power than the 22 offers, you'll have it. These 2 lbs of pistols offer a LOT more than any 3 lb .44 mag pistol offers, and you are already carrying the .22 ammo anyway (for the .22 unit in the AR-15) You should be already carrying the pocket 9 (with its spare mag) everyday anyway. So WHY jettison it (in favor of a big clunker .44) if shtf?

Same reason, why settle for the noise and 200 yd range limitation of the .44 rifle, when a lighter 223 has 400 yd effective range, lighter, more readily found ammo, and a.22lr conversion unit? The tubular mag sucks in combat, and it keeps you from mounting a silencer, too. Being without a silencer, if shtf, is just stupid, dudes.
 

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andy said:
You'd BETTER keep that rifle either in hand or on the assault sling. The frontiersmen managed to do this with 15 lbs of muzzleloader, possibles bag and powder horn, and you can't manage it with a 6 lb CAR-15? You're a wuss, that's all. The use of the centerfire pistol better be EXTREMELY rare, at very close range, and be SETTLED with 1-2 shots, or you will survive only by luck.
If Im taking a bath/cleaning self, sleeping, eating, or building something, chances are that the retained pistol will be far more availible and faster to field than any rifle or PDW.

andy said:
The silenced rimfire pocket pistol, however, can have a bit more of a role, like GETTING a rifle, if yours is somehow lost or ruined. Like passing thru a town, hitching a ride, etc, without being seen to be armed, yet be able to deal with a punk or two with axes, etc, without having the entire population hear you do so. Like being able to take a dog or small critter quickly and with little effort or wasted motion. Like being able to suddenly draw the silenced M21 22 Beretta and brain a guard, or remove some other type of "problem" man or dog.
A centerfire round can get a rifle just as well and better, as well as kill critters just as dead. The terminal effect on humans is also greater than .22RF with even a .380. Im not a big guy, and I can conceal my full size 1911 just fine. If youre getting out of a town with axe wielders, and you have a gun, you should be in good shape lol. There are plenty of suppressors for 9mm-.45 as well.

andy said:
At 9" OAL, and 14 ozs loaded, the canned M21 is worthy of inclusion in the BOB. So is a 1 lb pocket 9mm, in a front pants pocket holster. If you need more power than the 22 offers, you'll have it. These 2 lbs of pistols offer a LOT more than any 3 lb .44 mag pistol offers, and you are already carrying the .22 ammo anyway (for the .22 unit in the AR-15) You should be already carrying the pocket 9 (with its spare mag) everyday anyway. So WHY jettison it (in favor of a big clunker .44) if shtf?
Why not have a decent cf and suppress it alone? Why are you assuming people would neuter an AR-15 with a .22 unit when they plan on shooting individuals? A decent can is capable of suppressing a .223 just fine. Also, as per guard elements, why not avoid if possible; or engage from afar?

andy said:
Same reason, why settle for the noise and 200 yd range limitation of the .44 rifle, when a lighter 223 has 400 yd effective range, lighter, more readily found ammo, and a.22lr conversion unit? The tubular mag sucks in combat, and it keeps you from mounting a silencer, too. Being without a silencer, if shtf, is just stupid, dudes.
It truly depends on the situation. .44 leaves large holes, which may be valuable depending on the occurance. A .44 lever rifle also has a "PC" appearence and is less likely to draw attention.

Also, as previously stated, a sound suppressor isnt a vunderweapon.
 

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I'm under the impression, that everything you say we are incapable of doing, you are probably incapable of doing. This is the impression that you leave me with. It make me feel that you are trying to build up yourself because of a possible lack of self esteem. Am I correct gunkid?
 

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andy said:
You should be already carrying the pocket 9 (with its spare mag) everyday anyway. So WHY jettison it (in favor of a big clunker .44) if shtf?
Because it makes you pee your pants and blow a valve every time we talk about it.

andy said:
The tubular mag sucks in combat, and it keeps you from mounting a silencer, too. Being without a silencer, if shtf, is just stupid, dudes.
Well, no more than a shotgun's tubular magazine sucks in combat, and tube-fed pump action have been used in combat very sucessfully for a century now. . .
Not all tubular magazines extend to the end of the barrel, so a supressor could be mounted.
But, if one happens to be a fat felon with no field skills, he'll be detected long before having a supressed weapon will matter.
 

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I think that a canned Makarov or a quality 9mm would be a better choice than the Beretta M21. Even the Walther TPH would be a better choice if a 22. But then I guess the silencer makes you feel like James Bond.

RIKA
 

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I didn't realize that you could not mount a suppressor on a firearm with a tubular magazine.
 

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RIKA said:
I think that a canned Makarov or a quality 9mm would be a better choice than the Beretta M21. Even the Walther TPH would be a better choice if a 22. But then I guess the silencer makes you feel like James Bond.

RIKA
For some reason the James Bond theme is now stuck in my head, now Im humming it too... all your fault Rika :nyah:

In most situations, alot of things are a better choice than a Beretta M21 for survival purposes.
 

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The M21A is a good little gun, actually; the best-quality .22 pocket gun I’ve owned. (Beretta, Phoenix, and Jennings)

Its main drawback is the loss of power in such a short barrel, and its grip is unnecessarily thick. But all in all, for a pocket .22 (with the limits of any pocket gun in .22), it’s one of the best choices imo.

I don’t think I could carry it in my pants pocket suppressed, with the stated 9” oal. That’s longer than even the extended-length Glock 34; and more than 2” longer than the Glock 19. Would be handy (and fun) to have, but not a pocket proposition, imo.
 

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the suppressed M21 is in the BOB and the single stack 9mm is in the pocket. :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Sometimes, the canned M21 is to be carried in a fanny pack, worn at the navel. It drastically needs more slide wt, more "meat" in the slide, to allow you to dovetail in a real rear sight (front sight on the front top of the can, naturally). It also needs more metal on the slide to allow you to pivot-pin and spring an extractor. Then just pin down the pop up barrel, and you have a NICE trail gun. From a braced firing position, it will group 2" at 25 yds, and from weaver, 2.5". That means that you can reliably take squirrels and grouse with it to 50 ft, or rabbits to 30 yds. Not bad, for a total of 14 ozs. :) It is head and shoulders above the Phoenix, once it's been properly smithed. The HP22 is zinc, to include the barrel mount to the frame and the safety latch. Those 2 places should be HARDENED steel.

The modified M21, with the PT22 mag, thinned down plastic stocks, stippling, and a very long extension on the thumb safety (ie, Cocked and locked carry) is actually superior to the $500+ Walther TPH. GunsNStuff sells a $65 spare barrel that is 1/2" longer than the factory 2.5" barrel, and it's threaded on its exterior. All you have to do to install it is punch out the barrel's hinge pin. Early M21's had this pin press fit, so you had to drill it out, but later models were/are much easier to work with.
 

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andy said:
WHAT use for pistol, if shtf?
You know, it just struck me. Reasons are given as to why one doesn't need a pistol for SHTF, because the rifle should always be at the ready. Then, justification for carrying TWO pistols is given. . .
 

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Magnum, Your not REALLY trying to make sense out of this, are you? I remember not too long ago when the Phoenix Arms HP was the absolute best pocket carry around. (With a homemade can)
 

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Not even going to get into the whole gunkid rant... but, guns are just another tool in a SHTF scenario...each having its place, each for a specific purpose. Although I am new (as a member) to this board, I am sure that most do not follow the GK idea of traipsing around the countryside in the middle of the night "whacking" people in the back of the head with a "canned" 22 to stock up on supplies and weapons.

As one who takes preparedness as a way of life...(life's hard lessons learned on the Gulf Coast and through numerous hurricaines) I would believe that preparing for TEOTWAWKI is more a lifestyle than something we just jump into. I take my prepping pretty darn seriously, but it does not run my life or control it... what point is prepping if you don't LIVE life first... so guns are just a very small part of a much bigger picture. Personally, I do not own a large arsenal of weapons, I have enough for myself, my wife, and a few spares for trusted individuals that make it out to our location. We won't be bugging out... we already live where we need to be... I cannot see myself trying to function without a pistol...kinda hard to drive a tractor with a long gun in your hands...kind of hard to weed the garden with a rifle hanging off of your chest... I can think of a hundred and one reasons why a pistol would fit the "situation" better than a long gun...but it is just a tool... and at other times I would not want to be without a rifle in my hands...but when I am traipsing around on my property it is a pistol that is strapped to my hip... not a rifle....

Just my 2 cents....
Dave
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
that farming stuff will be at LEAST a year from the start of shtf. Any sign or sound of your presence is going to attract your killers. I've done a lot of tractor driving and weeding. you can easily rig a scabbard for a shorty AR on a tractor's rear fenders, and you can lay within reach as you do anything else, and move it when you move. If you're attacked, or even have a 50 yd chance at a predator, a chuck that's ruining your garden, etc, far better to have the rifle, especially a SILENCED rifle. That noisy pistol will call in every looter within 2 miles of you. Only the .22 makes sense to silence in pistols. Other caliber cans, for pistols, are so large and heavy that they RUIN the pistol for fast holster work. For instance, a traditional sized .45 can is 8" long and 1.625" in od, and it weighs about 10 ozs. You hang that on the end of an 8.5" 1911, and you've got carbine type handling-difficulties, without being able to brace it on your cheek and shoulder. 99% of the population won't be able to make it, so you will be fighting, a LOT, or hiding, the first year of shtf, you won't be doing ANY gardening. :) Longterm must take a backseat to shorterm prep. Getting thru the short term is a LONG ways from being the "gimmee" that nearly everyone thinks it will be. 90-99% of the US population is going to DIE within a year of the power's going off, and not coming back on, petro fuels, clothing shelter, fertilizer and pesticides not being available, etc.

For NOW, you can have army worms, etc, sprayed to stop them. Post shtf, you are going to have at LEAST 10x as much trouble growing things as you do now. We are very likely to have plagues of locusts, dustbowls, floods, MASSIVE fires, etc, again, once there's no longer anyone working to prevent such disasters.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
without spraying, ticks, flees, lice, and skeeters

will be overwhelmingly horrible. The animals that prey on them will all be dead, eaten by starving people. The bugs are going to have a real field day, for MANY years after shtf.
 

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Just out of curiousity "Andy" you don't currently happen to be living on your own piece of land do you? You currently are not growing any of your own food are you? You don't happen to be drinking water or taking shower out of your own well that is pumping from solar are you?

Are you currently living any type of "self sufficient" lifestyle... ???

Do you have YOUR ducks in a row... or is your idea to try to live off of guys like me that have spent a good portion of their lives working their asses off to own that piece of land (clear and free) so that they would be ready...

Got a little surprise for ya... down here in Texas... and in my particular neck of the woods... all my neighbors are farmers and ranchers... we all know one another... we also know who belongs and who doesn't... and I am not talking about for city blocks... I am talking for miles...

Most of these folks have been living and working this land for the better part of the last 100 years... I think you way under estimate the abilities... or the preparations that some folks do... or have done... because we live off of the land... and we... as friends and neighbors come together... in good times and in bad... we watch out for each other... it is the way it is... the way it has always been... long before there was electricity...doesn't have anything to do with your "idea" of what the end of the world will be... has to do with "what is right"...but that is something that you will never understand, man did not survive through the ages by going it alone... he did it by banding together... something you will never experience.... although you might get to understand Darwin's theory's in an up close and personal way....

I think someonence said... NO MAN IS AN ISLAND.... although in your case I think we could make an exception.... I do know this, MY surviving whatever comes ahead is not going to be aided by anything that you will bring to my table....

And just for grins and giggles... I know you.... we have danced this little dance on many occasions and on many different forums and for many years.... we have "verbally sparred" on many occassions, and I guess folks are right...
... somethings just never change....
even a half a decade later...
 

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A .22? For SHTF? NYUK! I'd rather keep 'em farther away than a good range for a .22 pistol. Makes for an easier, more discrete escape plan.
 

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You know, it just struck me. Reasons are given as to why one doesn't need a pistol for SHTF, because the rifle should always be at the ready. Then, justification for carrying TWO pistols is given. . .
Never mind, that if you’re carrying a rifle, there is zero point to concealing the pistol. In fact, there are arguments to not doing so, and for carrying a full size CF pistol.

if you ever get in a situation where you need to transition to your pistol, you aren’t doing so with a CCW one, and a rim fire is only slightly better than a sharp stick in combat.

I find it hilarious that we need to take out guards or axe wielding people. I’m trying to figure out which post apocalyptic movie we are in….

in one post, we are idiots for standing around in the open, in the next we are walking through a town. The very act of being visible in the open. so here, GunKid is the one advocating being in the open. Clown shoes.

I thought people would be unable to work together? By definition, a town is people doing just that.
 

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If the "balloon ever went up" and your out in the bush responsible for your own self defense, personally I'd want 2 handguns. A normal sized fighting handgun on my belt and a small hide away that I can access immediately and easily while I'm in a sleeping bag. History has recorded numerous events during wartime where troops have been bumped at "zero dark thirty" and have had to fight immediately to stay alive.
 

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You know, it just struck me. Reasons are given as to why one doesn't need a pistol for SHTF, because the rifle should always be at the ready. Then, justification for carrying TWO pistols is given. . .

but it also has to be concealable, for those times when it is SHTF, but the rifle cannot be visible or at the ready.

Conflicting requirements and scenarios are conflicting....o_O
 
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