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Discussion Starter #1
I think that a most likely SHTF scenario would be a collapse of the stock market, causing another great depression. Both of the depressions this country has experienced, 1876 and 1929, have been caused be over speculation in an over priced stock market.

There are quiet a few folks think it will be a rogue United States government, that confiscates our firearms. If so, that may be well into the future.

In California, Oregon and Washington, local SHTF scenarios could be caused by an earthquake called the "big one," predicted by geologists for quiet some time how. In California geologists are expecting the quake to be along the San Andreas fault line.

In 1812 the New Madrid, Missouri was struck by an earth quake, estimated to be over an eight on the Richter scale. This earth quake was felt from the Gulf of Mexico to the Great Lakes region. Articles I have read said the year of 1812, did not have a summer, because of the dust raised into the atmosphere by the earthquake

I have read where the City of Los Angeles an it's environs, only have a viable seven day supply of food, in the area, at all times. If roads are disrupted, if rail lines are blocked, if ports are closed, how will food be distributed? Has anyone contemplated that scenario?

What would the repercussions of a food shortage for twenty plus million people be? Bad new I would bet. Food Riots, Martial law being imposed would be the least of people's worries.

There several volcanos starting to show periods, of activity, all up and down the Pacific Coast.

The Yellowstone Caldera is showing signs of extreme activity. Asphalt roads have melted. Geyser areas have been closed to public viewing. Two hundred degree temperatures have been measured, one inch underground.

There is a growing lava dome, one hundred feet tall by several hundred feet long, in the bottom of Yellowstone Lake.

The whole area of the park has shifted, like a cup spilling it's contents, causing water to flow out of Yellowstone Lake where it has never flown before.

Animals are leaving several areas of the Park.

The Yellowstone Caldera is the largest Caldera in the world.

These scenarios are just some of many possibilities. Let me hear what your opinions and scenarios might be.

Bill
 

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Hey Bill,

One minor correction... the Caldera lava dome is estimated to be several miles deep by about 25 miles by 10 or so. It's freaking huge. There is another one becoming active as well somewhere west of Yellowstone as well. The ground has risen in a dome of about 10cm in the last 2 years.

Mike
 

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Actually,the most likely SHTF scenario I would worry about is this.
Remember a few years ago when Cali was having "brownouts" & "rolling blackouts"?That summer was very hot & dry.Un-employment was up.IIRC there was at least one case of "Rodney King Syndrome",in Ohio I believe.
I figured that a riot was in the near future.According to my mom there were riots here under similar circumstances back in the sixties.
I think that the combination of:


1)high un-employment
2)summer heat coupled with a drought in the mid-west &/or the east coast
3)a democrat in the White House
&4)a terrorist attack(s)would be the worst but the wrong stupid-cop-trick might trip the switch too

I think that it'll take a social problem to cause the most widespread SHTF scenario.
I'd like to think that a natural disaster would only cause a localized problem that would be handled without dragging down the rest of the country.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
If Bush is not relected, I think we are in for social unrest situations, all over the United States.

The riots we have experienced, here in California, have all started from stupid cop tricks. Usually, the most stupid trick, is under estimating the problem from the onset.

For some reason LAPD cannot spool up their forces quickly enough.

Bill
 

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Actually Stillwater I was thinking of how there were a couple of instances a few years ago where cops in Ohio.White cops of course.Beat up some black youths & were caught up in the moment enough not to notice that they were being filmed.I do believe that in two instances black suspects were killed by white cops.I figured Cleveland(or wherever)was going to burn....
Unfortunately stupid cop tricks aren't just the baliwick of the LAPD.:alien:
:beer:
 

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Discussion Starter #6
41mag said:
Actually Stillwater I was thinking of how there were a couple of instances a few years ago where cops in Ohio.White cops of course.Beat up some black youths & were caught up in the moment enough not to notice that they were being filmed.I do believe that in two instances black suspects were killed by white cops.I figured Cleveland(or wherever)was going to burn....
Unfortunately stupid cop tricks aren't just the baliwick of the LAPD.:alien:
:beer:
No, you're right -- stupid cop tricks aren't just an LAPD problem.

I wish it were like it was when I grew up. In the small town I lived in, Omak, WA, the police officers were your best friends. The only problems were transient fruit workers, in the apple harvest season.

Now, I look at a policeman, just like he's another problem. I don't like that attitude creeping into my psyche.

Is their a fix for these problems? Probably, but I don't know what it is.

Bill
 

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Anyone have any current URL's about the growing dome at Yellowstone? I did a quick search but didn't come up with much...

-- Excerpt from USGS Yellowstone Volcano Observatory Website, 2002
The term supervolcano has no specifically defined scientific meaning. It was used by the producers of a British TV program in 2000 to refer to volcanoes that have generated Earth's largest volcanic eruptions. As such, a supervolcano would be one that has produced an exceedingly large, catastrophic explosive eruption and a giant caldera. Because Yellowstone has produced three such very large caldera-forming explosive eruptions in the past 2.1 million years, the producers considered it to be a supervolcano. Because there is no well-defined minimum size for a "supervolcano", there is no exact number of such volcanoes. Examples of volcanoes that produced exceedingly voluminous pyroclastic eruptions and formed large calderas in the past 2 million years would include Yellowstone, Long Valley in eastern California, Toba in Indonesia, and Taupo in New Zealand. Other "supervolcanoes" would likely include the large caldera volcanoes of Japan, Indonesia, Alaska (e.g., Aniakchak, Emmons, Fisher), and other areas.
 

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I don't know, but I would think a TRULY SHTF scenario would be one in which so much of the country (or world) was affected, and the number of people involved so great, that no help would be forthcoming from anywhere in the foreseeable future. Localized events will always be overcome in short enough order to keep things manageable. Panic TRULY would set in when the people realized that there would be NO help at all for them to make any difference in their welfare.

When the survivors realize that the only thing standing between them living and dying is their own two hands, there is a good chance that the "civilized man" veneer would evaporate.

IMHO, of course.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Rich here are some URL's and a Idaho Newspaper article you might like to read.

Bill



http://www.solcomhouse.com/volano_lg.jpg

http://www.solcomhouse.com/yellowstone.htm

http://volcanoes.usgs.gov/yvo/

http://www.earthside.com/yellowstone.html

http://www.astro.helsinki.fi/~naran...ereruptions.pdf



From the December 2003 Idaho Observer:
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Scientists closely monitoring Yellowstone

Recent eruptions, 200 degree ground temperatures, bulging magma and 84 degree water temperatures prompt heightened srutiny of park's geothermal activity

BILLINGS, Mont. -- Yellowstone National Park happens to be on top of one of the largest “super volcanoes” in the world. Geologists claim the Yellowstone Park area has been on a regular eruption cycle of 600,000 years. The last eruption was 640,000 years ago making the next one long overdue. This next eruption could be 2,500 times the size of the 1980 Mount St. Helens eruption. Volcanologists have been tracking the movement of magma under the park and have calculated that, in parts of Yellowstone, the ground has risen over seventy centimeters this century.

In July, 2003, Yellowstone Park rangers closed the entire Norris Geyser Basin because of deformation of the land and excessive high ground temperatures. There is an area that is 28 miles long by 7 miles wide that has bulged upward over five inches since 1996, and this year the ground temperature on that bulge has reached over 200 degrees (measured one inch below ground level).

There was no choice but to close off the entire area. Everything in this area is dying: The trees, flowers, grass and shrubs. A dead zone is developing and spreading outward. The animals are literally migrating out of the park.

Then during the last part of July one of the Park geologists discovered a huge bulge at the bottom of Yellowstone Lake. The bulge has already risen over 100 feet from the bottom of the lake and the water temperature at the surface of the bulge has reached 88 degrees and is still rising.

Keep in mind that Yellowstone Lake is a high mountain lake with very cold water temperatures. The Lake is now closed to the public. It is filled with dead fish floating everywhere. The same is true of the Yellowstone river and most of the other streams in the Park. Dead and dying fish are filling the water everywhere.

Many of the picnic areas in the Park have been closed and people visiting the Park usually stay but a few hours before leaving since the stench of sulfur is so strong they literally can't stand the smell.

The irony of all this is the silence by the news media and our government. Very little information is available from Yellowstone personnel or publications. What mainstream newsstories do appear underscore the likelihood of a massive volcanic eruption. Though geologists publicly admit Yellowstone is “overdue,” they have been quoted as stating another massive magma release may not occur for 100,000 or 2 million years. Others close to the story are convinced that a massive eruption is imminent. A source that has demonstrated first-hand knowledge of the park's history and recent geothermal events stated the following: “The American people are not being told that the explosion of this 'super volcano' could happen at any moment. When Yellowstone does blow, some geologists predict that every living thing within six hundred miles is likely to die. The movement of magma has been detected just three-tenths of a mile below the bulging surface of the ground in Yellowstone raising concerns that this super volcano may erupt soon.”

***

This report was taken from a series of articles, emails and official information

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The Idaho Observer
P.O. Box 457
Spirit Lake, Idaho 83869
Phone: 208-255-2307
Email: [email protected]
Web:
http://idaho-observer.com
http://proliberty.com/observer/
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Rich:
Here is another article I found on Yellowstone. You will find a lot of nay-saying in this article. Some of these are the same people that said Mt. St Helens, in Washington state would never explode. However Mt. St. Helens did explode. Mt St. Helens was a cindercone volcano, not a Caldera, such as Yellowston Park is.

Bill

A couple of years ago, the BBC published a report about a possible impending megaeruption; but there's some controversy about the threat now:

http://volcanoes.usgs.gov/yvo/faqs4.html#13

When will Yellowstone erupt again?

We do not know. Future volcanic eruptions could occur within or near Yellowstone National Park for the simple reason that the area has a long volcanic history and because there is hot and molten rock, or magma, beneath the caldera now. Yellowstone is monitored for signs of volcanic activity by YVO scientists who detect earthquakes using seismographs and ground motion using GPS (Global Positioning System). YVO has not detected signs of activity that suggest an eruption is imminent.

The crust of North America continuously moves southwest over the Yellowstone hotspot as the Earth's crust stretches above it, promoting the ascent of heat and molten rock. These processes produce basaltic magmas within the Earth's mantle, which rise into the overlying crust and continue to heat the rocks beneath Yellowstone, maintaining and possibly adding to the rhyolite magma in the crust above.

Yellowstone's 2-million-year history of volcanism, the copious amount of heat that still flows from the ground, the frequent earthquakes, and the repeated uplift and subsidence of the caldera floor also testify to the continuity of magmatic processes beneath Yellowstone and point to the possibility of future volcanism and earthquake activity.

What type of eruption will occur if Yellowstone erupts again?

Yellowstone's volcanic and hydrothermal history suggests the potential for various kinds of eruptions in the future. The likelihood of a certain type of eruption occurring in the future can be judged by how often eruptions have occurred in the past.

The most likely type of eruption would not be volcanic but, rather, hydrothermal. This type of small, but still explosive eruption can occur from shallow reservoirs of steam or hot water rather than molten rock. These reservoirs are the sources of Yellowstone's famous geysers, hot springs, and fumaroles. Such explosions could blast out shallow craters more than a kilometer wide; as has occurred in the northern Yellowstone Lake Basin, including Mary Bay and nearby Turbid Lake and Indian Pond, and in western Yellowstone National Park north of Old Faithful. Each of these craters was produced by steam blasts within the past few thousand years.

The most likely type of volcanic eruption at Yellowstone would produce lava flows of either rhyolite or basalt; rhyolitic lava eruptions could also include explosive phases that might produce significant volumes of volcanic ash and pumice. Such eruptions could range in size from smaller than the 1980 eruption of Mt. St. Helens through much larger than the 1991 Mount Pinatubo eruption.

The least likely but worst-case volcanic eruption at Yellowstone would be another explosive caldera-forming eruption such as those that occurred 2.1 million, 1.3 million, and 640,000 years ago. However, the probability of such an eruption in any given century or millennium is exceedingly low -- much lower than the smaller eruptions mentioned above.

Is it true that the next eruption of Yellowstone is overdue?

The fact that two eruptive intervals (2.1 million to 1.3 million and 1.3 million to 640,000 years ago) are of similar length does not mean that the next eruption will necessarily occur after another similar interval. The physical mechanisms may have changed with time. Furthermore, any inferences based on these two intervals would take into account too few data to be statistically meaningful. To say that an eruption that might happen in ten's or hundred's of thousand's of years is "overdue" would be a gross overstatement. On the other hand we cannot discount the possibility of such an event occurring some time in the future, given Yellowstone's volcanic history and the continued presence of magma beneath the Yellowstone caldera.

and ...

http://www.talkabouttravelling.com/...ages/58523.html

Is Yellowstone Set to Blow?
by "Tom Beno" <[email protected][EMAIL PROTECTED] > Oct 29, 2003 at 05:04 PM

Is Yellowstone set to blow?

Online observers and scientists see same clues, different future for park.

By Rebecca Huntington in the Jackson Hole Guide

For doomsayers and outside observers, signs are abundant the monster volcano beneath Yellowstone National Park is stirring and a catastrophic eruption could be imminent.

Scientists agree Yellowstone is changing; it is a living, breathing
caldera volcano. But scientists counter that those fluctuations are minor compared to the activity that would be expected as a precursor to a major eruption.

One Web site bluntly outlines the debate: "Yellowstone supervolcano getting ready to blow its cork ... Is this hype or do the facts support such a prediction?"

Scientists monitoring the volcano say it's hype. Web site publishers following the Yellowstone saga disagree. What is agreed upon is Yellowstone has had a violent past and much of what makes it tick still remains a mystery.

But, no matter how stark the differences of opinion, the world's first national park holds the power to superheat the public imagination and send up plumes of predictions by modern-day Nostradamuses, conspiracy theorists, science buffs, star gazers and geyser gapers, among others.

"Yellowstone is a big limelight regardless," said Bob Smith, University of Utah geology professor and coordinating scientist for the Yellowstone Volcano Observatory.

Interest over Yellowstone awakened this summer when the National Park Service temporarily closed trails at Norris Geyser Basin because of geothermal changes. Trails heated to 200 degrees Fahrenheit. Also, a new mud pot ,splattering boiling-hot acidic mud formed near a trail.

A month later, a report of a bulge discovered on the floor of Yellowstone Lake, further fueled speculation of an impending explosion.

One Web site, exodus2006.com, published dire accounts from readers.

One posting stated: "There is a large dead zone of animals and vegetation. Immediately outside this dead zone, vegetation has stopped growing and animals are migrating out of the area. New geysers and mud pots are springing up daily. You can physically see the ground bulging up, not only at Yellowstone Lake, but in several places in the park."

The Web site also reports strong smells of sulphur, fish floating dead on streams and fishing closures as a result. Scientists say such claims are, exaggerated or misconstrued regarding phenomena not uncommon in Yellowstone. For example, new hot springs and thermal features have formed this year and killed vegetation in the process, Smith said.

But this has happened before. In 1978, vegetation and trees died in a half-mile wide area near the Norris basin after a swarm of earthquakes and changes in thermal features, said Smith, who has been studying Yellowstone's geology for 40 years.

"This is part of the natural evolution and the changes that occur when you have a dynamic system," Smith said. "Things that are normal at Yellowstone wouldn't be normal at other places.

That's why it's Yellowstone. It's a place of change."

As for reports of fleeing animals and people, Yellowstone spokeswoman Cheryl Matthews said Tuesday that the only exodus is seasonal employees, who typically leave after the busy summer season. Likewise, some animals typically migrate out of the park in the fall to winter ranges.

Also, Matthews said park officials have documented dead fish floating in rivers and lakes this summer. The Park Service did close rivers that became too warm this summer, she said. Those rivers heated up due to a combination of hot summer air temperatures and thermal run-off, she said.

Exodus2006.com publisher Andy McCracken acknowledged some postings on his site "might not be accurate" because he does not verify claims, e-mailed to him. A religious Rastafarian, McCracken lives in Hemel Hempstead near London and started the Web site in 1999. His site focuses on natural disasters of Biblical proportions with predictions of when they will occur and tips for survival.

McCracken initially became interested in Yellowstone's volcano after seeing the BBC's "Supervolcanoes" documentary. The documentary describes caldera-forming volcanoes. Supervolcanoes are not the traditional columns of magma, which form cone-shaped mountains. Instead a chamber of magma becomes a boiling reservoir in the Earth's crust that builds up colossal pressure before erupting.

Yellowstone's last caldera-forming eruption was 640,000 years ago. The impact of such an eruption today could destroy huge portions of the U.S., spew devestating amounts of ash, cause economic collapse, kill thousands and trigger climate change, the documentary warns.

Many of McCracken's concerns stem from information provided by scientists interviewed in the documentary, including Smith. Trail closures at Norris this summer stimulated more interest in the Yellowstone supervolcano, McCracken said via e-mail.

Smith called the BBC documentary well-done but said producers tended to paint the worst-case scenario instead of including more conservative views. For example, Smith has concluded "maybe supervolcanism has stopped at Yellowstone."

In contrast, the BBC documentary concludes with scientist Michael Rampino saying: "It's really not a question of if it'll go off, it's a question of when. Because sooner or later one of these large super eruptions will happen."

Recent online accounts of changes at Yellowstone have resurrected Rampino's comments on the documentary as further evidence of cause for concern.

Yellowstone Volcano Observatory Scientist-in-Charge Jake Lowenstern agrees a future eruption cannot be ruled out. There have been three very large eruptions at Yellowstone in the geologic past. Since that time there have been between 10 to 20 similar caldera-forming eruptions at other places on earth with the last one erupting 75,000 years ago.

"They occur. [But] they don't occur very often, and Yellowstone is a possible place for one to occur again," he said.

However, recent accounts are creating unnecessary anxiety based on little to no data, he said Monday.

"They have minimal data, and yet they're willing to leap to the assumption that the volcano is about to grow," Lowenstern said. "Our experience is we would have weeks to months of increasing activity prior to an eruption."

Likewise, Smith said: "I don't think we'd be surprised by an eruption."

Scientists don't dispute Yellowstone is experiencing changes. Lowenstern noted the creation of new hot springs near Nymph Lake and the Ragged Hills. Smith pointed to the fifth eruption of Steamboat Geyser in two and a half years after a decade of near silence.

But those changes do not signal an imminent eruption, they said.
Lowenstern and Smith agree that they would be documenting more swarms of earthquakes and ground deformation if Yellowstone were ready to blow.

A magnitude 4.4 earthquake Aug. 21 and a magnitude 3.3 aftershock Sept. 10 were recorded in the southern end of Yellowstone. But those quakes fit the normal pattern, Smith said, and overall, earthquake rates in the park are down.

"There's a group of people that like to amplify and sensationalize things that don't deserve it because there's no real evidence for it," Smith said. "I think we're trying to be careful and prudent to do our science."

Reports of ground deformation also have spurred speculation. U.S. Geological Survey researcher Lisa Morgan, who has been surveying the bottom of Yellowstone Lake, identified a bulge about 2,000 feet long and about 100 feet above the lake floor.

Although Morgan reported the finding this year, the bulge may not be new, Lowenstern said.

"We have better maps so we're able to see things that we couldn't see before," he said. "That doesn't mean that we're better able to understand what hazard they pose."

Researchers will monitor the bulge to see if it is growing, he said.

Smith has documented ground deformation of almost the entire caldera, which is about 3,000 square kilometers, using survey data dating back to 1923. By 1985, much of the caldera had swelled almost a meter, Smith said.

By the 1970s, the swelling had tilted Yellowstone Lake like a giant
bathtub, causing water to flood to the south end of the lake, drowning trees. (The bulge mapped by Morgan, in contrast, is but a pimple on the caldera and not a factor in flooding, according to scientists.)

"Everyone got all excited that that was a precursor to a big eruption," Smith said of the caldera swelling.

But then the ground began to deflate with hydrothermal fluids leaking out, he said. "Not only is it a living caldera, but it's a breathing caldera," Smith said.

The ground began to inflate again in 1995. But this time, only the
northwest side of the caldera is rising while the northeast and southeast portions are stable or dropping, he said.

Yellowstone is signaling the story is more complicated than a simple rise and fall of the earth's crust, Smith said.

Park officials also have seen changes now underway in previous decades. The newly-active Steamboat Geyser, for example, erupted 23 times in 1982, Matthews said.

Meanwhile, as debate has heated up over the supervolcano, trails at Norris have cooled, prompting Yellowstone officials to reopen all but 1,000 feet of footpaths on Oct. 9.

Marshall Masters, who is based in the San Francisco Bay Area, sees changes in Yellowstone as a "harbinger of a broader global pattern,"

Unlike McCracken, Masters said he does not publish hearsay though he gets plenty of it. His sources are news media, NASA and other legitimate sources, he said.

Lowenstern disputes claims on Masters' Web site and some radio talk shows of increased volcanic activity and suppression of monitoring data because politicians don't want to scare tourists away from Yellowstone. "My legal responsibility is to provide warnings to the landholders and the public," Lowenstern said. "If there's anything that's happening, we'll let people know everything that we know."
 

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Man, I love it. Scientists, none of whom have ever witnessed the precursors to a supervolcano, nor ever run into anyone who has either claiming they will know those events when they see them.

I read a book a while back about a volcano that was threatening to erupt on an island and the local government actually prevented the population from evacuating, claiming it was all a false alarm. When it did erupt, it killed everyone but one guy who was in a prison cell at the time. Wish I could remember the name of that volcano. But certainly I have no doubt that rather than prevent a panic that may prove to be false, any government would rather have people killed by such an event.

Say, for instance, that if our government knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that the world was going to end in 100 days, and there was nothing that could be done about it, do you think they would tell us?

What, and have a panic for 100 days? Are you serious?

I would expect to see politicians going into extreme debt on frivolous purchases...... People spending exhorbitant amounts of money to get elected into office for one last shot at power.... Or heck, maybe the entire country going into apparently irreversible debt...... hey, you don't suppose.... :shrugs:

Nah.... if that were true, they probably would try to take away all of our firearms beforehand to keep us in line.....
 

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all it will take isa FEW serious hands,

doing everything that they can to ruin the economy, in about a month, and the copycats,and the overreaction by Big Brother,alienating more people.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Rich Z said:
Man, I love it. Scientists, none of whom have ever witnessed the precursors to a supervolcano, nor ever run into anyone who has either claiming they will know those events when they see them.

<snip>

Nah.... if that were true, they probably would try to take away all of our firearms beforehand to keep us in line.....
Rich:
I see you can read, with comprehension. Very few people who read the two posts I made, can comprehend what is happening in the rhetoric, between the scientists. Yes it will -- no it won't, yada, yada, yada.

Some of these same scientists were the ones that said Mt. St Helens wouldn't explode. But, it did!

Bill
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Re: all it will take isa FEW serious hands,

223 fan said:
doing everything that they can to ruin the economy, in about a month, and the copycats,and the overreaction by Big Brother,alienating more people.
Well Patricia, I see you're still with us. Wheres MELVIN?

Is MELVIN raising hell on some other site, and you're hanging out here, covering for him?

Bill
 

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Those are some very interesting articles.I remember seeing a program on Discovery where when a volcano in the Pacific Northwest erupted its ash covered through the Dakotas & into present day Minnesota.This wasn't the dinosaur killer either.This was supposedly what killed off most of the large land mammals in the northern hemisphere.Not too terribly long ago then.

It seems kinda ironic that 223fans' plans for de-populating the world to his benefit might be quashed by a natural disaster that he'll never even see coming.:wavey:
 

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SHTF will likely occur on a personel level

What are you going to do when an semi-auto requires the same hoops to jump though as a Class 3 weapon?

You will either give em' up or hide em', what about personal defence? You going to bury your side arm along with the Constitutuion.

Most folks will just carry on and try to ignore the laws and stay low under the radar, thats what happens in states that have already passed such laws.

That will work for awhile as long as you don't get caught in a "Homeland Security" checkpoint with a handgun in the car or someone doesn't turn you in.

At the point you run a muck of one of the thousands of stupid laws your personal SHTF will have started. You will go outside the law or enter the legal system. Won't really matter at that point your life will be forever changed.

Does anyone really believe we will ever see the level of freedom our grandfathers enjoyed without a shot being fired?

Teuf,
 

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There's not a lot of worry at the moment

because anyone who's SERIOUS about ccw can still just MOVE where he won't be bothered AT ALL, like Vermont or Alaska, or carry openly in New Mexico, CO, or half a dozen other states. However, when mere possesion of an auto rifle constitutes a felony, everywhere, it will be time to do the Samson thing. Too damned BAD that some that the roof falls on are "innocent".
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Re: There's not a lot of worry at the moment

andy said:
because anyone who's SERIOUS about ccw can still just MOVE where he won't be bothered AT ALL, like Vermont or Alaska, or carry openly in New Mexico, CO, or half a dozen other states. However, when mere possesion of an auto rifle constitutes a felony, everywhere, it will be time to do the Samson thing. Too damned BAD that some that the roof falls on are "innocent".
Good morning Patricia (Pat Rydz) -- how are you this fine morning?

Bill
 
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