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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
223 carbine is the biggest gun/load that is still handy with an adequately quiet can attached. The 308 needs 10" of can. If you want more than M4 range out of the 308, you've got to have a 20" barrel. So, by choosing 308, you are choosing to not have a can, or have a slow, clumsy club of a gun.

Mostly, if you have any smarts, sthf and combat and foraging are all about sticking to thick cover or darkness, silent 22ing livestock ,small game, birds, dogs, cats and people. The game will all be gone within a month or 2 of sthf, Especially the big stuff, since there's so little of it and because it's rewarding enough that a lot of people will try for it, with dogs, NVD goggles, bait, trail cams, snares, etc.

So there's just not going to be anything that you need more than a 223 for. 223 can brain big critters to 100m or so, anyway. Running out of ammo, or making noise when you shouldn't, that's what better concern you, rather than being able to shoot elk in the ass at 300 yds.
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Know what happens when you shoot an elk in the head (70 yds or so) with a suppressed M4 and 223 sp? The temporary cavity is so violent that the skull is fractured in several places and the eyeballs pop out of their sockets. The elk falls so fast and hard that you can hear his chin thump on the ground.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
if you've established baited salt licks in advance of shtf, and have snares buried where you can quickly deploy them, as well as peanut butter and crackers for use as bait, with neck snares where the elk and deer have to rear up to get at the bait, and with foot snares all around, hooked to drag logs, you're going to have some jerky.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
set up several such salt licks across about a 10 mile diameter area, baiting them periodically thru the year, with carrots, apples, sweet corn, a bale of alfalpha or clover hay, and the animals will make REGULAR passes thru your baited area, to see what might be there. Then the first week of having the snares set, you'll be kept very busy turning fresh meat into jerky, Also, you'll be using the gut piles as bait for your aquisition of bear fat and hides. Ditto fish heads and guts, cause you've also had enough sense to cache gill nets and netting with which to make fish traps.

Walking around in the open, in daylight, while wasting calories hunting, will be an excellent way to get shot, if it's shtf. Traps, nets, snares, bird lime, fish poison, all can be utilized at night, with NVD's.

So , if you have brains, no need of 308 even for big critters. If you blast one with 308, every critter within a mile is going to flee or go into hiding. Brain one with a suppressed 223, tho, and often, the others just mill around, or flee only 50 yds, then stop to look back, wondering what is up. Also, everyone within 2 miles heard your 308 blast, and is sneaking up on you, catching you elbow deep in blood and guts, rifle set far enough away to remain un-splattered and out of the way, also means that it's out of reach when enemies pop up.



suppressed 223 full power loads sound like a normal .22lr rifle. Inaudible at 1/2 mile, and without meaning/direction at 1/4 mile. At night, of course, you are much less likely to be bothered by anyone in the area, especially if you have NVDs and they dont. So, there's far more important things for the survivalist to own and know about than a noisy, big caliber rifle. You could easily need the luminous sights or the take-down concealment aspect. and practically guaranteed to need the .22lr conversion unit. The .22 is a very handy training tool in 'normal times", too. Practice with the silenced .22lr handgun does nothing for your speed shooting skills with your rifle. Practice with the (unsuppressed0 .22 unit very much DOES increase your hitting speed with the suppressed 223.

The suppressed 223 carbine and .22 unit is useful all year, for combat competitions, varmint hunting, small game with the .22 unit, for vehicle and home defense, for teaching novices, for deer and hogs at 150m and less, as well as for shtf. Without such a wide variety of utility, I can't see bothering to own a longarm. Pistols can handle the rest of it. So why lug around a longarm?
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
2+2 just STAYS 4, guys. the challenges and available gear stay the same, so of COURSE the best answer remains the same one that was the case 20 years ago. Only whim-worshipers "think" that gear-choices have to change in order to stay valid/current. So some new, noisy, bulky rifle or caliber has hit the shelves, so what? It's not a concealable, take-down auto, , doesn't shoot the GI rd, or have luminous sights, it's not rapidfire-capable, has no .22lr unit, no short barrel, no threaded muzzle, no protected iron sights, no drop-in trigger job, no ambi-safety, no chromed bore and chamber, no dark, rust-resistent finish. I mean, they are deficient in so MANY categories that it's depressing.
 

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so why do you really need a suppressor? Trying to start World War 4 1/2?
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
all these years and you aint learned a thing. You wear earplugs for an entire patrol? No flash at night with suppressor. saves your night adapted vision and hurts enemy ability to bring effective fire on you. NO 50,000 rds fired per hit, due to flinching,as is the case with US troopbs. ablilty to kill several enemies, without making others aware of the attack. The ability to silently remove a guard dog, sentry, or scout. the ability to take game without alarming other game, or calling in enemies. The ability to train where and when you could not otherwise practice. Any 12 year old kid can see these advantages, and you CLAIM to be a long time military veteran and "experienced" shottist. You're nothing but a plinker and that's all you'll ever be.
 

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Have you ever been on a patrol? No not the type where you walk around a building and beat your puppy dog like you did in Korea! I don't need 50,000 rds to hit a possible enemy, I actually paid attention during the lessons the army gave me on marksmanship training. Plus for years I was a competitive service rifle shooter out to 500 yds. There are many others here that also are practiced long range shooters. If I'm shooting into a dog pack, I don't have any intention of using a suppressor. When I was deployed to the Middle East we had dog packs on occasion inside our perimeter on a number of occasions. Very easy to make short work of them with a 12 gauge pump shotgun.
 

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You don’t know anything about suppressors or .308s - you should stick to whatever it is you actually have any experience with, which appears to be very little.
 

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set up several such salt licks across about a 10 mile diameter area, baiting them periodically thru the year, with carrots, apples, sweet corn, a bale of alfalpha or clover hay, and the animals will make REGULAR passes thru your baited area, to see what might be there. Then the first week of having the snares set, you'll be kept very busy turning fresh meat into jerky, Also, you'll be using the gut piles as bait for your aquisition of bear fat and hides. Ditto fish heads and guts, cause you've also had enough sense to cache gill nets and netting with which to make fish traps.

Walking around in the open, in daylight, while wasting calories hunting, will be an excellent way to get shot, if it's shtf. Traps, nets, snares, bird lime, fish poison, all can be utilized at night, with NVD's.

So , if you have brains, no need of 308 even for big critters. If you blast one with 308, every critter within a mile is going to flee or go into hiding. Brain one with a suppressed 223, tho, and often, the others just mill around, or flee only 50 yds, then stop to look back, wondering what is up. Also, everyone within 2 miles heard your 308 blast, and is sneaking up on you, catching you elbow deep in blood and guts, rifle set far enough away to remain un-splattered and out of the way, also means that it's out of reach when enemies pop up.



suppressed 223 full power loads sound like a normal .22lr rifle. Inaudible at 1/2 mile, and without meaning/direction at 1/4 mile. At night, of course, you are much less likely to be bothered by anyone in the area, especially if you have NVDs and they dont. So, there's far more important things for the survivalist to own and know about than a noisy, big caliber rifle. You could easily need the luminous sights or the take-down concealment aspect. and practically guaranteed to need the .22lr conversion unit. The .22 is a very handy training tool in 'normal times", too. Practice with the silenced .22lr handgun does nothing for your speed shooting skills with your rifle. Practice with the (unsuppressed0 .22 unit very much DOES increase your hitting speed with the suppressed 223.

The suppressed 223 carbine and .22 unit is useful all year, for combat competitions, varmint hunting, small game with the .22 unit, for vehicle and home defense, for teaching novices, for deer and hogs at 150m and less, as well as for shtf. Without such a wide variety of utility, I can't see bothering to own a longarm. Pistols can handle the rest of it. So why lug around a longarm?
so, where are you going to get these bales and other items?

who is standing around in the open, and why?

You keep making asinine statements about what people will do, and about things you have no idea about.

So, tell us, when did you brain an elk?
 

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You know what your problem is Melvin?

Again you do a long winded treatise on projecting your various handicaps onto others.

Plus you have some ongoing fantasy of being a world renowned firearms, martial arts and survival guru.

Spewing lies and vitriol over the last 20-30 years has only made you the laughing stock of the internet.

You could have spent the time learning real skills and adapting realistic work around's for your problems.
But nope you keep repeating the same material and repeating the same critical mistakes in life, like repeated trips to the cross bar resort.
And repeatedly blaming a host of others for your screw ups.

Sad very sad.
 

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Flaws in his thinking:

He isn’t setting up these traps in the dark.
The presence of these traps indicates someone is in the area.
He isn’t butchering anything in the dark
He isn’t hauling anything off in the dark silently or without leaving a trail
He isn’t caching or carrying all this gear and bait.


All anyone has to do is setup near one of his traps and ambush him when he comes to check it. They can set up off trail to not be visible. They can make it look like an animal got away so he will need to reset the trap.

In this thread he still touts the luminous sights, though he has learned from us and no longer touts them in more recent posts.
 

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223 carbine is the biggest gun/load that is still handy with an adequately quiet can attached. The 308 needs 10" of can. If you want more than M4 range out of the 308, you've got to have a 20" barrel. So, by choosing 308, you are choosing to not have a can, or have a slow, clumsy club of a gun.

Mostly, if you have any smarts, sthf and combat and foraging are all about sticking to thick cover or darkness, silent 22ing livestock ,small game, birds, dogs, cats and people. The game will all be gone within a month or 2 of sthf, Especially the big stuff, since there's so little of it and because it's rewarding enough that a lot of people will try for it, with dogs, NVD goggles, bait, trail cams, snares, etc.

So there's just not going to be anything that you need more than a 223 for. 223 can brain big critters to 100m or so, anyway. Running out of ammo, or making noise when you shouldn't, that's what better concern you, rather than being able to shoot elk in the ass at 300 yds.

what are we choosing with a .308?


You aren't even choosing an M4, which would be an excellent choice compared to your 11" crippled carbine. What does caliber choice have to do with running out of ammo? you are just as likely to run out of ammo as anyone else, mores because you cripple your weapon right off the bat.
 

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223 carbine is the biggest gun/load that is still handy with an adequately quiet can attached.
Nope. Not even close to true.

An SBR-length or pistol version in .300 blackout exceeds it in both bullet size AND ft/lbs of power. Even from a 9" gun, the .300 blackout surpasses a .223-pressure load (which is all your 60-grain softpoints are going to be) that's fired from a full size 16" gun. And from that same 9" barrel, it almost matches a full 556-pressure load from a full size 16 inch gun. Muzzle energy, by caliber and barrel length (the .223 sbr was 10 inch; the 300 sbr was even shorter, at 9 inch):
13977


From: SBR Caliber Showdown: 5.56/.223 vs. 300 BLK - The Truth About Guns
 
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I can't believe that anyone in his right mind would be going on a patrol wearing ear plugs, talk about signing your own death warrant!
 
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...the challenges and available gear stay the same, so of COURSE the best answer remains the same one that was the case 20 years ago...
Here's the thing - the available gear absolutely DOESN'T stay the same. Even if we wanted to stay with the same caliber (and I like the 223 caliber), the ammo choices have absolutely changed for the better; so why not consider using better ammo. The ammo in my go-to 223 magazines is far more capable than any 223 ammo that was available back when I was in the service, so the gear obviously didn't "stay the same".

Better optic? Why not; optic choices are HUGELY better than they were 20 years ago. Magazines? I like the old-school GI aluminum magazines, but there are some out now that are absolutely as good, and in some ways better. So why not accept the improvement?

If we're NOT willing to accept these improvements, we're intentionally choosing gear that's less than the best. And if we ARE willing to change ammo, optics, and/or magazines, why not consider the possibility of changing other factors as well?
 
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It's like the other gear discussion... I've changed from old LCE clip(or modifications there of) to full MOLLE type as my go to gear with few exceptions.

Our excitable boy seems to be fixated on the last millennium in many cases.

The "One Trick Phoney" song and dance" from "Broken Record Productions".
 

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It's like the other gear discussion... I've changed from old LCE clip(or modifications there of) to full MOLLE type as my go to gear with few exceptions.

Our excitable boy seems to be fixated on the last millennium in many cases.

The "One Trick Phoney" song and dance" from "Broken Record Productions".
it's clear almost all his experience is from the '70s
 
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